Oregon "Church" Refuses To Sign Marriage Certificates For Heterosexual Couples Until Gay People Have Same Marriage Rights

Apparently the First Congregational United Church of Christ in Ashland, Oregon has forgotten that Jesus Christ has commissioned the Church to go and make disciples by teaching people to observe all that He has commanded (Matt 28:18-20). Making disciples includes teaching people about the sin of homosexuality and God's coming wrath and judgement of people who practice homosexuality (1 Cor. 6:9-11).

It has been reported in the Ashland Daily Tidings:

that the First Congregational United Church of Christ’s Rev. Pam Shepherd, seeing the act of signing marriage licenses for heterosexual couples as a form of discrimination against gays and lesbians, decided that in the name of fairness no licenses should be dignified with the signature of the church’s clergy until all families receive equal treatment under the law.

The article quoted Rev. Shepherd as saying, "I’ve been for civil rights for gay and lesbian people for a long, long time, but I never thought, ’I’m helping the discrimination every time I sign a license.’" (Online Source)

Comments

[Ralph M. Petersen]

Pam Shepherd thinks much too highly of herself. Her signature on a marriage license would NOT bring dignity to the document or the union. In fact it would be disgraceful and shameful.

[Tina]

I have an even better idea for them.....Stop having service and lock your doors. Open them when you get a true pastor who believes in the Word of God.

[Christy]

Since when does anyone have the RIGHT to marry? People are denied a marriage license for any number of reasons. Should a 35-year-old man trying to marry a 13-year-old girl be allowed to get a marriage license? If we say no, then we're saying that the man doesn't have a right to that marriage license. I don't read anywhere in the constitution that all Americans should have the RIGHT to marry.

[Jude]

Read this article http://www.dailytidings.com/2006/May%202006/0512/051206back.shtml it's about the Ms. Shepard.

[Jude]

If she is their "Reverend" then that building full of people have way more to worry about then the fact that she is not signing any marriage licenses.

[pastorharold]

I guess Rev. Pam views God's choice of a man as the pastor of the church as a form of discrimination aginst women. Will she refuse God now? Or has she done it already?

[Ken Silva]

This is yet another reason why God does not want women ordained as elders. In Pam's case she's singing a tired ol' song: "Feelings, woh, woh, woh, feeelings..."

[Mark]

Good for her. Finally, someone is taking a stand against this discrimination.

Christy: as far as a RIGHT to marry - when thousand of secular laws (state and federal) specifically refer to married individuals, it is unconstitutional to prohibit two consenting adults to form such a bond. If this does not agree with your religious beliefs, then work to change ALL the laws to use the term "civil union" in place of marriage. Then "marriage" can be reserved for those who want a religious ceremony but not deny Americans of equal rights.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Mark,

The Christian Church has a Biblical duty to preach against sin and evil and to call people to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Since God's Word is unmistakably clear that homosexuality is a sin . Therefore, Christian pastors are supposed to call homosexuals to repentance instead of working to help redefine marriage so that their sin will be legitimized.

[Mark]

Chris,

I am a Christian, and gay. It is the way God made me. It is not a choice, it is not a decision I made - it is my very being To change, would be to disregard the gift He gave me.

The Bible mentions many things as sin and I find it really sad that churches today seem to narrow in on this one issue.

Remember 1 Corinthians 13:13

[Chris Rosebrough]

Mark,

God did not make you Gay. You are gay because of Man's fall into sin. Homosexuality is a sin every bit as much as stealing, lying and adultery and there isn't one passage of scripture that you can point to that says that God made you Gay.

Please understand that I am everybit as much of a sinner as you are. But, because you are rationalizing your sin and glorying in it rather than repenting of it and asking God's forgiveness that you have exalted yourself above God and His Word and are in danger of the fires of hell. You are believing a false gospel and a myth that God makes some people gay and that this is a gift from God. This disqualifies you from being a true Christian.

Repent! Christ died for your sins including your homosexual sins. Repent and flee from your wickedness and believe the true Gospel.

1Cor. 6:9   Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

[Mark]

Chris,
You are very wrong on this issue. I am not "rationalizing" anything. God made me in his image: he gave me my brown eyes, my hair and my height. I realize that I am responsible for my weight. ;-)

And I am truly sorry that you feel you are somehow a "better" or more of a "True" Christian than me. I was not aware that there are any versus in the Bible that state one sin is worse than another.

Romans 2:1

[beon]

Mark, I am in agreement with your first comment. The state should not be the arbiter of marriage under a constitution that promises equality for all. This causes a confusion of the two kingdoms. How can the state provide equality and discriminate against sin at the same time, it can't. The Church should provide marriages to whomever they see fit. The state should provide legal protection for civil unions.

On your second comment, I disagree. I have no doubt that you are filled with homosexual desires and attractions, and have been even from your youth. This doesn't make acting on these feelings Godly. Being a fallen human means desiring nothing but to sin and do evil all the time. Only through God's gift of faith and repentance can we begin to hate the sin we do and love God's righteous commands.

Just a bit of psalm 119, which you might want to read all of, and maybe even memorize, even though its a bit long:

"4You have laid down precepts
that are to be fully obeyed.

5 Oh, that my ways were steadfast
in obeying your decrees!

6 Then I would not be put to shame
when I consider all your commands.

7 I will praise you with an upright heart
as I learn your righteous laws.

8 I will obey your decrees;
do not utterly forsake me."

[Christy]

Mark, please post the clause in the constitution that gives us the right to marry anybody we choose. Before I was a Christian, I cheated on my husband. It's not something I'm proud of, nor do I like to even mention it, but instead I praise God that He washed, sanctified, and justified me. If I had decided that I wanted to be married to both men, I would have been denied a marriage license. I could argue that I have a right to be happy and marriage to two men would make me happy. I could also argue that we were consenting adults (of course, I don't think my husband would have gone for it, even when he was reprobrate too), and no one has the right to keep consenting adults from marrying more than one person at a time. I could even argue that, because of the relationship I had with the second man, I had a right to be covered under his insurance and have an inheritance in his estate if he died. Problem is, I don't actually have a right to any of that. My adultery was no less sinful than a homosexual union, and it carries no more legal standing.

[Paul Latour]

Dear Mark

Pornography is a sin. A sin against God's 7th Commandment. As all sins, a hell damning sin. For ME, that was a particular sin I justified (didn't even call it sin) and was part of my lifestyle for many years. I loved it.

Homosexuality is a sin. A sin against God's 7th Commandment. As all sins, a hell damning sin. For YOU, it is a particular sin you justify (you don't even call it sin)and has been part of your lifestyle for many years. You love it.

As much as I tried to reject God, by His grace and power, I came to understand that pornography was a grave sin (see Matthew 5:27-28)riding along with ALL my other lifelong sins. By conviction I came to know and receive the gift of God's loving forgiveness for me through Christ's death on the cross and resurrection.

By His mercy, grace and power, I am saved from my slavery to sin and saved from the wrath of God inflicted on all unrepentant sinners in eternal hell.

God did not make me a pornographer. All I was doing was what came naturally for me...sinning in that particular lifestyle. MY 'choice'.

God did not make you a homosexual. All you are doing is what comes naturally to you...sinning in that particular lifestyle. YOUR 'choice'.

Mark, you cannot call yourself a follower of Christ ('Christian')and continue to practice that which He clearly condemns and expect to go to Heaven after you die. I am a no better man than you, Mark, none whatsoever. I am, however, eternally better off than you unless you do what I had to do:

Forsake your sin and flee to the cross of Christ! He took upon Himself the sin of man and paid the price as our substitute with His life's blood. Receive the free gift of forgiveness Christ offers and be saved! Be saved from slavery to your sin and be saved from the wrath of God in hell for it.

With heartfelt brokeness, ask God for the gift of repentance and faith. He promises to forgive and then give you all the power you need to turn away from your sins and administer the grace you need for a deep seeded faith in Christ for your remaining days here on earth.

On a human level, near impossible. I know. But as Jesus said: "With God, NOTHING is impossible". Trust Him with all your heart, Mark, today! Tomorrow may be one day too late.

I will pray for you.

[Chris]

Mark,

Please don't think that any of us are trying to be mean or ugly by our comments. Each and every one of us simply wants you to be in good standing with God. It is not any of our desire to see you damned or any homosexual damned for that matter. We simply want to make sure that you are in good standing with Christ so that we can see you in eternity along side each of us.

As for scripture that talks about homosexuality I encourage you to look at:

1 Corinthians 6:9
1 Timothy1:8-11
Romans 1:26-27
Leviticus 18:22

Please look at these and spend some time in prayer. I understand that you feel like God made you like this but his word says differently.

Basically it all comes down to how much do you want to make sure of your salvation. I say that because if you never change and are wrong then you will be cast into hell, not because you are worse but because you chose to walk in sin. On the other hand if you choose to change your life and homosexuality is indeed ok, i don't think this is the case based on the above scriptures, then you still go to heaven.

I say all this as a one who wants you to be ok. Please just pray and really study those verses.

[Mark]

beon:
I must disagree. God made me the person I am (not perfectly good, not perfectly evil). He wants me to live the life he made for me, not what others "think" is best for me.

Paul Latour:
Please save your prayers. I do not need them. I am pleased for you for changing your life to one that is better suited to you, to be the best person you can be. Whether you (or anyone else) considers me a true Christian does not matter to me. On the Day of Judgment, we will all have to face our Maker. I know I am living the best life possible, with Gods help.

Christy:
There really isn't any law in the Constitution so I guess we need to do away with all marriage. In regards to your argument about multiple people in a marriage - I am referring to TWO (and only 2) consenting adults (not children, not animals). And, for a few Biblical references, if you were a man, you COULD have multiple wives: Deuteronomy 21:15 and 2 Samuel: 12:11

[jess]

This is from the church's statement of faith:

"We are a progressive Protestant Christian community of faith and service. Our congregation is a place where our members seek to know God in the spirit of Jesus Christ and to gain strength and support for our spiritual journeys and ministries."

I'm a bit concerned with the phrase "spirit of Jesus Christ." Does this congregation deny the orthodox trinity?? Do they belive in a one-ness theology, that Jesus is the manifested representation of the Father?? Or is this the Bultmann-esqe heresy of neglecting both the fully human and fully divine nature of Christ, and saying that Jesus was considered merely more than human (or super-human) only in the sense that He was completely dependent on the Father. If so, that would explain the lack of integrity they have to upholding scriptural truths. I pray for their repentance. May God change their hearts towards proper orthodox Christianity.

[Mark]

Chris:
Thank you for your thoughts. I do not hear any mean or ugly thoughts here, just a lack of understanding. I thank you for the Bible verses but I am well aware of them. When one looks into the historical aspects of language and writings, there are often incorrect translations. As the Bible was a verbal telling for so long, and then written and copied (often by people who themselves could not read) I do not believe in a literal reading of the Bible. Take for instance the first verse: 1 Corinthians 6:9. In the King James version its ends with "nor abusers of themselves with mankind". I am not convinced that that is the same as homosexuality (actually, I am not sure exactly what the writer intended).

[Chris Rosebrough]

Mark,

I read Hebrew and Greek. I have a degree in Biblical languages.

In the passage in question the greek word is arsenokoiteœs. It is a combination of two greek words, arsen and koites. It literally means men who have sexual relations with other men.

Again the issue here is that the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality as sinful. Only those who are undermining the scripture or trying to find a way to justify homosexuality and remove it from the sin list are those who are saying that we can't know for sure what these passages really mean.

God did NOT make you gay. The Bible is clear that ONLY Adam and Eve were made in God's perfect image. All of the rest of us after their sin and fall are born dead in tresspasses and sins and are by nature objects of God's Wrath. (that includes you and me).

Eph. 2:1   And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Again you are in gross and egregious sin and rather than repent (change your mind) and confess your sins and receive Christ's mercy and forgiveness you are instead twisting God's word and trying to justify your sin. Repent. You are in danger of the fires of hell. Christ is offering you forgiveness and mercy for your sins of homosexuality as well as your lies, your thefts, and your adulteries.

The 'god' you've been describing and believe in is not the God of the Bible. Instead your 'god', the one who blesses people by making them homosexuals is a false idol of your own making and that 'god' does not exist. Repent!

[wilson]

Mark

"He wants me to live the life he made for me"

If homosexuality was the life he made for you, why does he condemn that same life throughout Scripture?

If homosexuality was part of the original created then God would have presented the our first human father Adam with a woman Eve and a man Steve and said "here, pick one and enjoy!".
Adam picks Steve and the human race lasts one generation.
A society built on homosexuality dies.

[Mark]

wilson:
If you want the human race to continue, a good way is with one man and many women. In fact, read Deuteronomy 21:15 or 2 Samuel: 12:11. It does not seem that God has an issue with polygamy. In fact, many of the early leaders had not only multiple wives but concubines. Remember Abraham and Sarah and Hagar?

[servant]

In going to Pam's website, i found this quote interesting
"Our faith is based upon the witness of the Bible, which we take seriously, not literally"

Mark, the Lord knows your heart...He bore the pain of all you have suffered; the rejection, ridicule and self doubt.We have all sinned and strive to put those things behind us. We must clearly see and choose to seek after Christ's righteousness, no matter what the cost .Give yourself completely to Jesus, and the Peace that surpasses all understanding, will fill your heart. God is calling us all to repentance, we must wash our robes in the blood of the Lamb, and be brought before the Lord, without spot, stain, or blemish.

[beon]

Mark,

God did not call us to live out our sinful natures, but instead to hate the sin within us, and with desperation cling to the redemption bestowed upon us by Christ's bloody sacrifice. Even while Christ sweat blood begging God to find another way to rescue sinners, God DELIGHTED in pouring out the full measure of his wrath on Christ; Christ who was perfectly innocent. This was not wrath owed to Christ but wrath that is owed to us, wrath is our just due, wrath we store up for ourselves with each sinful thought, word, and deed. Our hearts overflow with murderous idolatrous deceitful wickedness. Our infinitely holy God would be unjust to not give us the wrath we are due.
But in his infinite mercy, God had a way to save us, God poured out this wrath on Christ, and covered us over with Christ's perfection like a white garment.
By nature we are DEAD in our trespasses against God. We are not born into the world pleasing to God, but corpses, vessels of destruction. "Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?" (Rom 7)
We can only be pleasing to God if God gives us repentance and trust that Christ's work is sufficient to save us, then we are pleasing because our sin is covered up by Christ's perfection. Our debts have been paid, and our bank accounts have been credited full with righteousness.
Our own righteousness reeks to God like rotting menstral blood. Only under Christ's perfection can we ever please God.

From Romans 3:
None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.

Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.

The venom of asps is under their lips.

Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.

Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.

There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[don't touch God's anointed]

Clearly defining marriage as being betweem a man and a woman is not discriminatory. A publicly traded corporation can't be defined as a sole proprietorship. Is that discrimination. Black will never mean green, is that discrimination? I believe that I should be able to go on red lights, but the cops keep on giving me tickets. I think they are discriminating against me. I would never be hired as a pediatrician, but only because I don't meet their definition of what a pediatrician is. Not only does God's word disagree with homosexuality, but the common sense of nature does as well. If homosexuality was the norm then we might have a slight population problem.

[John from Down Under]

Mark, I DON’T HAVE a degree in Biblical languages but Greek is my mother tongue (I’m a Greek-born Australian) and I can tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt that Rosebrough’s translation of “arsenokoiteœs” does indeed mean “to lay with men”. The sin of homosexuality is a no-brainer in the Bible. We’re not talking about Situational Ethics here or the nuances of insider trading. This is pretty black and white.

I DID NOT grow up in a Christian home and I hung out with a few gay people in my pre-Christian days. I UNDERSTAND the gay mindset. The person who pointed me to Christ was also gay, except he never believed that God made him that way. He knew that if he continued in that lifestyle he was effectively holding a GPS with directions to the lake of fire. He repented and was restored, and he eventually got married to a Godly woman.

I have a sneaking suspicion that deep down in your heart YOU KNOW that God DID NOT make you that way. You have CONVINCED yourself that he has because it’s EASIER to live with your conscience that way. Your ‘born-gay’ persuasion will drive you to twist the Scriptures endlessly to justify your lifestyle. You have persuaded yourself that your gay impulses are ‘natural’ but that is only because the sinful nature of fallen man is powerfully deceptive and can overpower any ‘common sense’. If God truly MADE people ‘naturally gay’ then he must have also given ‘natural’ impulses to paedophiles, necrophiliacs and those who practice bestiality. It is no different. You can see that you are anatomically designed for a man-woman relationship.

As others pointed out before me, homosexuality is no worse sin than lying, pride, or adultery. But the blood of Christ CAN NOT wash away a habitual, conscious and persistent sin that you refuse to acknowledge and repent of.

Mark here’s some parting thoughts:

• YOU CAN NOT CHANGE ON YOUR OWN STRENGTH. It takes divine intervention to change you, but ONLY if you acknowledge it, repent, accept Christ’s blood as the penalty for your sin and his FREE forgiveness. Then the Holy Spirit can truly transform you.
  
• Having dealt with ‘former gays’ I know that temptation may come back and you may get withdrawal symptoms, but the God who can change you can also help you STAY that way. It also helps enormously to stay in close fellowship with Christians who don’t white-wash sin and can genuinely encourage you the right way.
  
• If you’re in a church that condones your lifestyle THEY DON’T TRULY LOVE YOU and I really fear for them when they appear before the judgement seat of Christ.
  
• I’m NOT a Rosebrough fan and have locked horns with him on other issues, but his ‘hell warning’ here is quite fitting to the occasion. If nicotine has eroded your lungs and the doctor who looks at your X-rays says “if you continue to smoke YOU WILL DIE”, he is not trying to scare you. He is fulfilling his duty of care to his patient and is upholding his Hippocratic oath. As Christians when we see someone sin we are supposed to “snatch [them] from the fire and save them……hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh” (Jude 23)
  
• Mark many of us LOVE YOU but just hate homosexuality because God hates IT too. But Jesus loves you a lot more because he shed his blood for you whereas we did not.
  

‘Born gay’ IS A LIE but the truth will set you free. Here’s some of that truth from the lips of Jesus. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. IT IS BETTER FOR YOU to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matt 5:29-30)

[Jimmy]

Mark,
We not trying to be mean but their is no such thing as being gay and christian.All people sin we all struggle, he who says he does not sin is a liar.Pray for the Lord to help you.I my strugles too that am not happy about and that is my fault.You were not born gay we were all born into sin my friend.

[Paul Latour]

Dear Mark,

You told me to: "Please save your prayers. I do not need them. I am pleased for you for changing your life to one that is better suited to you."

I had no desire nor ability to change my life on my own. Like a man who would need outside intervention (CPR) to save me from dying of a heart attack, it took outside intervention (GOD) to give me a life that would better suit HIM and save me in the process.

To say you do not need prayers of others is akin to saying to Jesus two thousand years ago: "You go right on ahead and die for everybody else, I'm alright. I'll get to Heaven on my own, thanks."

Humble yourself, sir. Repent. Please, not for my sake but for yours! You are playing with fire.

Your suggestion for me to save my prayers only causes me to be more fervent in them for you. May grace come to you as it has for me.

[Mark]

"Clearly defining marriage as being between a man and a woman is not discriminatory." (I assume you meant 'between')

This would be a true statement IF marriage was purely a religious ceremony. Unfortunately, in the United States, there are thousands of federal and state laws that use the term "marriage". Allowing some to enter into such a LEGAL association (which bestows the participants protections and privileges)but not allowing others is discrimination.

Sadly, these same arguments were used against couples of mixed races when they wanted to marry.

beon:
I am truly sorry that the only god you know is some being who "DELIGHTED in pouring out the full measure of his wrath" on an innocent individual (some would call this a sado-masochist). I believe in the God who delights in human wonder. Who instills his love on this world. Who, while He might feel it necessary to punish His children (like any good parent) does it, NOT for his enjoyment but to help them become better people.

I will continue to go through this world and life, sharing my light and love. I will continue to treat all people as I would myself. I will work to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, and give comfort to those in need. I will NOT spend my time in fear nor in preventing two people who love each other from forming a lasting relationship. Because when my end comes, I will look God in the face and say that I did my very best to live my life as Jesus taught me and thank Him for the life he gave me.

[Mark]

Paul Latour:
Forgive me if I misunderstood. Of course people can always use more prayers of support. However, it seems to me that your prayers are more of a condescension than a true prayer.

I do not need saving from being gay. I will say it again, it is how God made me.

Jimmy: "their (there) is no such thing as being gay and christian". And yet, I stand before you and have many friends just like me. We do admit to our sin, but being gay is no more a sin than having red hair.

John from Down Under:
I would never presume I know whats going on inside of you, please don't assume you know whats going on in me.

I do not doubt that your mothers understanding of the word “arsenokoiteœs” does indeed mean “to lay with men”. However that is what she has been taught. Do you know that many sources state that the word is not found in documents older than the Bible? It was when it was translated that early writers referred it back to the story of Sodom and it got its rlationship to homosexuality. Looking at the word, "Koites" generally denotes licentious sexual activities, and corresponds to the active person in intercourse. The prefix "Arsen", simply means "male". It could mean a male that has sex with lots of women.

[Lucas]

"The Bible mentions many things as sin and I find it really sad that churches today seem to narrow in on this one issue. "

Churches focus on this issue because it is becoming more acceptable within the church and society. If pedophiles or zoophiles were to demand the same acceptance as homosexuals, the church would fight back just as hard.

[Byrd]

Answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit. -Proverbs 26:5 In accordance with this proverb, I set forth the following for consideration by Mark and any others that would accuse Scripture of being either lost in translation, or mishandled over time and therefore adulterated, yet would still call themselves after CHRIST's name or bother to read the Scripture at all. Mark, with the logic you have set forth, I wonder that you even accept the notion that there is such thing as sin. You typed, "When one looks into the historical aspects of language and writings, there are often incorrect translations. As the Bible was a verbal telling for so long, and then written and copied (often by people who themselves could not read) I do not believe in a literal reading of the Bible." According to your statement here the bible necessarily becomes worthless, providing no more trustworthy an insight into the will of GOD than a random book on a library shelf. If we cannot trust that GOD has providentially guarded HIS own words so that we may know HIS ways, then the bible is forfeit, and all scripture is not "given by inspiration of God, profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" as stated in 2 Timothy 3:16. And if this were the case, then why are you entertaining the name of JESUS CHRIST in the first place? I mean, if I adopt your attitude toward Scripture as quoted above, then I can say GOD doesn't disapprove of adultery or fornication or murder or theft or lying or ANYTHING for that matter. Indeed, the logic you present does away with the authority of the bible altogether. And with its validity done away with, where is the truth of the concept of facing GOD on Judgment Day to be verified? If the passages dealing with homosexuality are called into question, then so are all passages, and yet you still wish to cite other portions of Scripture as if your logic still left room for biblical authority. The adulterer can do just what you are doing, as well as the murderer and drunkard. Now I ask you, do you not understand that adultery, fornication, theft, lying, drunkenness, pride, murder, and blasphemy are sins, meaning these are things that the LORD hates? I ask this in hopes that you have not become so reprobate as to straight-face gainsaying that these are clearly sinful things. But if you can at least see the wrongness of these matters, then perhaps you are not altogether blinded. And if you can accept that these words are not mistranslated, then why do you feel that Scripture goes wrong at the mention of homosexuality, unless, as it seems, you are wishing to justify yourself? I sincerely hope this helps you to sort out the error in reasoning which is contributing to your bondage to homosexuality. Proverbs 14:12 reads, "There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." You are looking in the right place if you are seeking JESUS CHRIST, and the bible is definitely HIS Word, but the enemy is working to sidetrack you and deceive you. The truth is, one can trust the bible. When it calls out pride, it means pride, and when it calls out homosexuality, it means homosexuality. Trust that GOD speaks enough languages and is careful and powerful enough that HE knows how to communicate HIS own mind to us. Please do not be a lover of pleasure more than a lover of GOD. No sin is so precious as to be preferred over GOD, and it certainly is not worth spending eternity in the lake of fire to enjoy the pleasure of sin for a season. I type this compelled only by love and concern for your soul, Mark. May you relinquish every last sin in repentance and receive the length, depth, breadth, and heighth of HIS unfathomable love and mercy offered in CHRIST JESUS.

[John from Down Under]

Mark I rest my case. Your persistent defensiveness shows that you have a one-track mind and nothing we can say will change it.

May God grant you repentance. If not, I don't like your odds.

[servant]

Mark,
you said "that when your end comes, you will look God in the face"
when my end comes, i will lay prostrate before The Almighty in sheer reverence

[Mark]

Well, it has been a LONG day and I must brave the snow to go home. I have enjoyed the discussion.

Have a good evening.

[Sister Cin]

Mark,

As a born again Christian, I do believe you were born gay. Just like I was born a liar, a thief and a blasphemer. Eph. chapter 2:3 says "...we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" Wait...here's the good news in verse 4&5- "BUT GOD, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved-"

Let's take homosexuality off the table and not consider it a sin for a moment. You are still in danger of everlasting destruction because you will face a Holy, Righteous God on judgment day. His Moral Standard is the 10 Commandments. Have you ever lied? Stolen anything? The 1st commandment says have no other god's before Him. You are creating a God (that delights in human wonder) for yourself that suits you and winks at sin. You said "I will look God in the face and say that I did my very best to live my life as Jesus taught me and thank Him for the life he gave me." What do you think His response will be to you? Heaven or Hell? Jesus was not just some teacher who wanted you to live your best life now and feed the poor every now and then. He IS God. This is the gospel, "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." (1 Peter 2:24) Repent and believe and obey the gospel!

Think of the motive of all the people writing to you. We are not selling you anything or asking for money or asking you to join a religion. As one of my favorite internet preacher says..."You are only dealing with your ever living, never dying soul!" You are seriously mistaken about God's Presence and His Power and His Provision. God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I pray you will humble yourself today.

[Jude]

Mark,

I pray that in all things and in all your days you remember Christ and His word and I hope it dwells in your heart and you allow Christ to mold you in the way that He has planned for you. I hope you know that when you became a child of God, baptized for the forgiveness of sin you received the gift of the Holy Spirit and when you are reading the words out of the bible I pray that you allow the Holy Spirit to dwell and teach you. And a piece of advice, just remember that the only way to Heaven is by the word of God, nothing we ourselves say will get us into Heaven. It is not our home it is something that God wants to share with us. By His shear mercy and grace He paved a way for salvation, because of our sins we were doomed to Hell, but because of the death of His Son, when we receive Him, baptizing into Christ we are called His children and as long as we walk in the light as He is in the like the blood of Christ continuously cleanses us from all sins and we gain in inheritance which is Heaven. Don't be afraid to say something is sin and don't be afraid to change so you can seek and glorify God, He will take care of you and He will give you a peace and a confidence that will be for His purpose. He's rooting for you, don't forget that. May God bless you.

And I pray that everyone else who reads this know the same thing. God wants us to be His children and He wants us to worship Him and He wants us to be saved, that's why His Son died for us. May God bless you.

[Paul Latour]

"I do not need saving from being gay. I will say it again, it is how God made me."

Dear Mark,

Again, God's Word clearly lists homosexuality as one of many, many sins against His Holy Law, worthy of eternal condemnation. Just because you disagree does not make things alright for you. You are in blatant rebellion against God.

Either the Bible is true, or its an all out lie.

If a lie, you are in the clear (though your foundational basis for belief in God, as you claim to have, is foolish and futile).

If true, and unless you repent, you will have to answer to ALL your sin, including homosexuality, and face God's eternal wrath against you.

By claiming that God made you a homosexual, you have created a god in your own head to suit yourself and justify your sin. In doing so, you have also broken the 2nd commandment which warns against idolatry.

Either you are right or God is right. As they say, Mark, "eternity is a long time to be wrong".

Still praying for you.

[Mark]

Thought I'd check back with you all this AM.
Byrd: I trust what the Bible says not just the verbatim translation of every word. An example: if you read a book from about 70 years ago and they refer to a man as being gay, it has an entirely different meaning than a book written in 2009. And that's using the exact same word in the exact same language. When translating from one language to another, one must understand the culture and time in which the work was written. Language is fluid, and meaning must be taken in perspective.
Sister Cin: I have never said I was perfect and don't pretend to be. "Think of the motive of all the people writing to you." The motive is to convert me to your way of thinking, which I believe is wrong. To conform to what others think, makes me someone other than God made me.
Paul Latour: I am afraid it is you who have built a false idol, one of literal laws that completely disregards the person. This is why Jesus spoke out against the Pharisees and religious leaders of his day.
Do you truly believe the sky is made of windows as the Bible describes?: Genesis 7:11, Genesis 8:2, Isaiah 24:18-19, , and Malachi 3:10
Or that the earth is stationary and never moves?:1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 104:5, Isaiah 45:18
And, back to the original idea of this article: if gay marriage is truly against Gods laws, then those that participate will have to face His punishment. No earthly laws are needed. If, however, people are born gay, and you work to pass laws limiting their freedoms, you have done a grave disservice to your neighbor and it will be YOU who are judged.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Mark,

Listen to the words of Jesus as recorded in Leviticus 18

Leviticus Lev. 18:1   And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, I am the LORD your God. 3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes. 4 You shall follow my rules and keep my statutes and walk in them. I am the LORD your God. 5 You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.... 22 You shall not lie with (have sexual relations) a male as with a woman; it is an ABOMINATION.

In Leviticus Chapter 20 Jesus lays out the penalty for those men caught having sexual relations with each other in Israel..

Lev. 20:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying... 13   “‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

So Jesus thinks that Homosexuality is an abomination that in ancient Israel was punishable by the death penalty.

Before you accuse me of being crazy by claiming that Jesus is the one speaking in Leviticus, remember that Jesus is none other than the ONE true God in Human flesh. Jesus is YHWH (the LORD) of the Old Testament.

Therefore Jesus opinion of homosexuality is that it is an abomination. And Jesus doesn't change his mind on things. As Hebrews 13:8 says " Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

You are in MAJOR sin and need to repent. Christ is offering you forgiveness and mercy for your abominations. Repent!

[Mark]

Chris Rosebrough:
As I have said before, while that is the current English translation, I do not agree (nor do numerous Biblical scholars) that that is the true meaning of the phrase. It is felt to refer to prostitution in the the temple of which I do not participate, not homosexuality. God gave us minds to question and think. Otherwise, there is no free will.

The following is a short list of other things that I assume you are doing as prescribed, as these are God's commandments as well.
To circumcise one’s offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3)
To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38)
To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8)
To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8)
To rest on Shabbat (Ex. 23:12; 34:21)
To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9)
Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl (Lev. 22:24) (Don’t be getting your tomcat neutered )
Not to boil meat with milk (Ex. 23:19)
Not to eat flesh with milk (Ex. 34:26)
Not to eat the flesh of unclean beasts (Lev. 11:4)
Not to eat unclean fish (Lev. 11:11)
Not to eat blood (Lev. 7:26)
Not to borrow on interest (Deut. 23:20)
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)
To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18)
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18)

[beon]

Mark said:
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I am truly sorry that the only god you know is some being who "DELIGHTED in pouring out the full measure of his wrath" on an innocent individual (some would call this a sado-masochist).
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Mark,

Why do you call yourself a Christian if you don't believe in the cross? Your depiction of God does not match the Christian God of the Bible. God delighted in putting our wrath on Christ because it was the only way to save us from eternal damnation. The wrath of God is coming because God is just and we deserve it. If you feel righteous in your living you have missed a central message of scripture. NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS. We are all sinners that deserve eternal torment where the worm never dies and the fire is not quenched and there is nothing but utter darkness and weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Consider the difference between this man who fasts and prays and does all that is holy verses the one who extorts people's money from Luke 18:
The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'

But the tax collector,standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other.

From Romans 2:
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. ...for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Don't be deceived, our good works are revolting to god.
From Isaiah 64:
"We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment."
From Jeremiah 17:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick;"

Mark, we are miserable wretches, totally depraved sinners that are incapable of not hating God without his mercy. We are in desperate need of Christ's saving work on the cross. Christ sacrificed himself for you, even as he sweat blood, begging:
"My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Christ propitiated God's wrath against us in order to save us from eternal destruction. God declares us righteous (justifies us) on the basis of Christ's work, not anything we've done. Any other gospel you have heard about earning God's favor by good living and helping the poor is a bundle of lies. You cannot earn salvation from hell. (Rom 3:20) "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight" We are sinners and the wages of sin is death. We earn nothing but wrath through works and the law.

From Eph 2:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

From Romans 9:
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

...You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"

Mark, Repent and trust in Christ Jesus to save you from the wrath of God.

From Revelation 6:
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

[Mark]

beon:
"Why do you call yourself a Christian if you don't believe in the cross? " But I do believe in the cross.

And I am truly sorry that all you see is a vengeful God. With your description, I take it there is no point in doing anything good. Lets rape and kill because no matter what, God will punish. Might as well have fun. And since Jesus is God, how can I ask Him to protect me from Himself?

You are missing so much in the loving God and Father. I also feel you are not hearing most of Jesus' message.

I find it truly sad that most of the people on this site seem to feel just in saying I am not a Christian because I do not think exactly like you. I am sorry, but if that is not judging another, I am not sure what is judging.

[pastorharold]

God made you gay????

My wife is glad God didn't make be a wife beating, adulteress, unemployed, alcoholic husband.

Is that the life god would have me live?

Or is it SIN?

[Mark]

pastorharold:
Yes, God created me as a gay man. And I am sorry that you equate that to a person who would do harm to others.

[beon]

Mark,

Yes, God is loving. So loving that he poured out His wrath on Christ in order to save us.

From Rom 6:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
...Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

When you say I've missed Jesus' message, what message are you talking about? The message passed down to us in scripture? Please quote to me the message that I'm missing.

Since you say that you believe in the cross, but called God a sadomasochist for crucifying him, can you answer some questions?

Why was Jesus crucified? Was God to powerless to stop it? What did Jesus save us from? How was this accomplished? Wasn't that a useless waste?

[wilson]

Mark

What is your understanding of Romans 1:18-32?

wilson.

[Larry]

Mark,

Christ's love brings truth and as Christ came to fulfill the law and not abolish it the sinful activities and you engage in and condone are damning.So I encourage to turn from them and turn to Christ. For God gives all men over to disobedience to have mercy on them all( Rom 11:32)Since Christ fulfilled the law that also makes Lev. 20:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying... 13 “‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 100% true and this is something that cannot be excused or dismissed. I hope that you yield to Christ and not the devil.

[Sister Cin]

Dear Mark,

You said... "I find it truly sad that most of the people on this site seem to feel just in saying I am not a Christian because I do not think exactly like you. I am sorry, but if that is not judging another, I am not sure what is judging."

Nobody wants you to think like us or be like us. We want you to be conformed to the image of Christ. Romans 12: 1-3 "by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

We are not judging you. We are asking you to judge YOURSELF before Almighty God judges you.

Mark, how did you get to this website? As a professing Christian, do you visit this website often because you are concerned how the Lord Jesus Christ is being diminished by the "church"? Or did you get here via the topic of gay marriage? Either way, it is no accident that you came here (and keep coming back) and so many people have reached out to you in love by telling you the truth of what is to come. Take advantage of the grace God has shown you by hearing the gospel. You are not getting told the whole gospel by the people you surround yourself with if they are telling you God is love, love, love. While He is absolutely love (making the ultimate sacrifice for us on the cross shows that love), the Bible says He is holy, holy, holy. (Isaiah 6:3)

"Come now, let's reason together!"... before it's too late! Stop using your own reasoning alone as the standard and humble yourself before the Lord!... "says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool." (Isaiah 1:18) Can you hear the hope in that?

There is only one reason stopping you from understanding this plea for your 'ever living/never dying soul'... John 3:19 "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." This is not my judgment but God's. If this judgment of God convicts you then repent, believe and obey the gospel. If this verse further hardens your heart, what Biblical hope do you have that you are a Christian?

[Mark]

beon:
I never said God was a sadomasochist for crucifying Jesus. It was your use of the terms that God "DELIGHTED" in crucifying Him that I find disturbing. No Father, God or human, would happily torture his child. It might be what is needed, but he wouldn't be happy about it.
"Please quote to me the message that I'm missing."
1 Corinthians 13:13
"Why was Jesus crucified? Was God to powerless to stop it? What did Jesus save us from? How was this accomplished? Wasn't that a useless waste? "
Basically, these are all similar questions. Jesus sacrificed himself to pay for humankind's sins. He took the bullet for us, in other words. Of course God was not powerless to stop him, God is all powerful. But it was Jesus' decision, His choice. It was the most wonderful thing someone can do for their fellow man, and Jesus did it for us all.

wilson:
I have heard of a few explanations for Romans 1:18-32. One is that when is says "the men, leaving the natural use of the woman" it is referring to heterosexual men. So of course it would be wrong for them to engage in sexual activity that is contrary to their normal activity. Another one states you cannot understand Romans 1 without proceeding to Romans 2. In Romans 1, Paul is using an "attention grabbing" technique. The people he was addressing at the time probably responded to the list of sin with disgust, that other people would do such things. He then comes back with (Romans 2:1) "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." Paul was using it as a teaching tool regarding judging the behavior of others.