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Now your children can play a 'Christianized' version of Guitar Hero. What could be more "fun" than playing along to heretical mindnumbing 7-11 'praise' choruses. This is nothing more than a cheap "monkey-see monkey-do" version of guitar hero. (So much for being 'counter cultural')
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Being blindly, mindlessly countercultural is no better than blindly, mindlessly following the crowd. Just because something is popular among, or liked by, worldly people doesn't automatically make it inappropriate for Christians. If it were, we as Christians wouldn't be able to drive automobiles, go out to eat in a restaurant, or listen to classical music.
Some people will have a problem with the style of music used in this game, believing that rock music is inherently satanic. Beyond this argument, can you give me one good reason Christians should stay away from this product?
Posted by: Barb | September 02, 2008 at 12:56 PM
I am of the same mind. My born again Christian mother who is 55 years old has Guitar Hero at her house for her grandchildren to play. And when the family is together, often times we'll play against each other - all in good fun. There are a some songs on there that I definitely find objectionable, however there are other songs that are playable. I would welcome this alternative because it is actually a very fun game.
Posted by: Matt S | September 02, 2008 at 03:41 PM
I'd have to check out the songs and find out about the lyrics in them (to see if they're actually heretical or just really repetitive), but, conditionally, I don't have a problem with this. I've checked out Guitar Hero, and I don't want my kids listening to most of the songs that game has, and this would be an acceptable alternative to me.
Posted by: Christy | September 03, 2008 at 12:27 AM
I don't believe that The Curator went far enough. A visit to http://www.goodfight.org/ might illuminate the issue. I have the full release of "They Sold Their Souls to Rock and Roll". I showed the ad clip to pastors in my church who then showed the condensed version to our entire church. To say that there were gasps and crying in the audience is putting it mildly.
The expose on these musicians is excellent, concise, and breathtaking. Anyone, who has been listening to music since the 1950's, particularly Rock and Roll, would be wise to fully investigate the matter. The list of Satanists is simply mind-boggling - and no, I do not make the statement lightly.
So, should Christians be imitators of the world? Should they realize that there's a hook under the bait and leave the bait alone? There is no eating around the hook.
When will people, and Christians in particular, figure out that they have a fully armored, take-no-prisoners, wants them in hell, enemy? When will they wake up and smell the coffee - if he can't get you in hell, then he looks for ways and means to get a toehold in your life. He's stronger and much smarter than sheep (the dumbest of God's animals). And what do the sheep do? Well, nevermind being wise as serpents, oh no, there they go. Mindlessly following behind the Butcher, himself.
Curator, hold the wall - Ezekiel 33:1-9
Posted by: walksbyf8h | September 03, 2008 at 09:04 AM
Whether it's secular or christian music, you should be careful to what you listen to and HOW you listen. It's been my experience that most so-called christian music is just as wicked in it's content as the secular stuff...
As far as guitar hero is concerned, if you really want to buy the product for your child, but you don't want them listening to the lyrics, just turn them off. It's an option included with the game...
Posted by: MentalChick | September 03, 2008 at 09:34 AM
"So, should Christians be imitators of the world? Should they realize that there's a hook under the bait and leave the bait alone? There is no eating around the hook."
Let me say this: There is no such thing as Christian music. Or for that matter secular music. There is however such a thing as Christian or secular lyrics. If the lyrics in this product are praiseworthy (Phil 4:8), who then should condem it? It is too bad that legalistic fundamentalists, who have no sense of what it means to be a missionary to this world, have to waste their valuable time talking about these types of things at length. Sepratism has no place in the church. We have been called to be in the world but not of it, that is for sure. But living a life as a legalistic sectarian who cannot cope with the culture in which they live is absolutley sin.
Posted by: prodigal | September 03, 2008 at 12:25 PM
What exactly do you think the Psalms are? They are music as well as lyrics. Second of all - that scripture is fully out of context and not applicable. How exactly is imitation of the world and its systems, praiseworthy (scripture to follow)? I can tell you this, prodigal, one cannot be a missionary to the world when one is no different from the world. It is obvious that you still don't understand that.
It would behoove you to do some bible study instead of sitting around assigning names to others that mean absolutely nothing. A good place to start would be the Old Testament. This would enable you to exercise discernment. Oh no! One of those old-fashioned, fundamentalist words!
LOL...well, I'm not surprised since I smell milk on your breath. It is obvious that you do not have an understanding of the words, heresy, blasphemy, or sacrilege. Heretical lyrics are not praiseworthy. Nor is imitation of the world:
James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
There's an old saying, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".
So let's be clear, the bible defines sin - not your flesh and desires. The Word of God alone. Sometimes its instruction comes as a precept, sometimes a directive but this issue has been dealt with. And know this - the fact that you don't understand should give you pause. I know it won't but again, it should.
;-)
Posted by: walksbyf8h | September 03, 2008 at 03:22 PM
It seems to me I can recall some of the Psalms were meant to be sung to other tunes of the era. Just look at the instructions to the musical director. Whether these other songs were spiritual or just harmless little melodies everyone happened to know (like "Row Row Row Your Boat" in our day), I don't know. But if it's possible to sing different words to the same tune, which it obviously is, theoretically a horrible song glorifying violence or sexual promiscuity COULD have been sung to the tune of one of the Psalms. In that case, the tune wouldn't glorify the lyrics - the lyrics would degrade the tune. I disagree with Prodigal in one respect, but agree in the other: music itself isn't inherently spiritual or inherently worldly, but lyrics can be.
As far as "imitation of the world" - again, does the fact that the world does something AUTOMATICALLY make it wrong for Christians? There are people in the world who are kind, generous, and tastefully funny. Does that mean we as Christians should reject kindness, generosity, and tasteful humor, just because some people in the world value those virtues? Although our reasons for being kind and generous as Christians should differ in at least some respects from a worldly person's (we want to honor God, not JUST make friends and avoid unnecessary conflict), we don't eschew these virtues just because they aren't exclusively Christian. And consider what Chris always says about Jesus junk - "Is it a sin now to use cheaper, better-quality erasers/golf balls/rubber ducks now that we have this shoddy, expensive, Bible-verse-engraved eraser/golf ball/rubber duck instead?" This is a purely rhetorical question. Or is it? It was the world that created erasers, golf balls, and rubber ducks in the first place, after all. Maybe we should avoid playing golf or taking tub baths in the first place, since worldly people do those things too. If your position is that certain kinds of music are somehow demonic, I disagree, but I respect your opinion. If what bothers you most, though, is that this is a Christian version of a popular secular product, I find that a little hypocritical - unless you're wearing clothes you sewed together from paper bags and you spend every second of your free time in prayer and Bible study.
Posted by: Barb | September 03, 2008 at 05:27 PM
Barb,
That is a strawman argument- and I'm not going to bother picking that post apart. The thinking is unreasonable and goes far and wide of what I posted or this thread. If you disagree with my position, that's fine but please stay in context and use scripture to support your reasoning. WalksByF8h only has the Word and her understanding of it. Her opinion is not worth a bucket of worms.
Later, gator!
Walks
Posted by: walksbyf8h | September 03, 2008 at 05:52 PM
When I hear or read that the music itself doesn't matter, it's only the lyrics that matter, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
I am a music teacher. I can tell you from years of experience and study that music DOES matter. It is the vehicle on which the lyrics travel. It evokes emotions. Have you ever seen an old movie that doesn't have background music? It falls flat. Many of the old "Tarzan" movies didn't have any music. I never liked them but I didn't realize why until later.
Have you ever heard music that makes you want to move, such as tap your foot or swing your hips? Of course you have. The music is controlling you. There are composers who have to watch movies scene by scene and compose music to fit them. Sometimes it's very subliminal. A good composer can push the height of emotion in each scene. The people who come up with contemporary "Christian" music know exactly how to do this. They bring people to the highest points of their emotions so they'll love the music. They can control people, especially those who are all too willing to let them. Slap on some "Christian" lyrics or something that sounds religious and they make millions. Millions! Add that to the concerts and various and sundry other merchanise they peddle. I have read that Christian book stores make most of their money by selling contemporary "Christian" music and all the junk that goes with it. It's a multi-billion dollar industry.
Can you imagine contemporary Christian lyrics without the music? Not much would be left. People would actually focus on words and the smart ones would figure out that a lot of the lyrics are "me" centered instead of Christ centered. " I need you, I want you, help ME." The 7-11 lyrics are just as bad. Sometimes I've heard the same seven words fifty times. That (with the music) along with the swaying back and forth or other repetitive movements can induce a trance. Just watch anything on what is referred to as ceremonial "voodoo" practice and you'll see for yourself. That state of mind can let spirits in that aren't from God.
Don't EVER believe anyone who says the music doesn't matter. It DOES!
Posted by: carol | September 03, 2008 at 06:42 PM
Saying music doesn't matter is just a way to say it is not where the sin is to be found. Carol is right in that music can evoke emotions. However, I will say that what determines the song's sinfulness or glory is the lyrics.
I'm not completely sold as repetitive lyrics being sinful or pagan either. I would judge the song by content rather than repetitive lyrics. (Psalms 136 comes to mind).
Posted by: JfTheophilus | September 04, 2008 at 01:08 AM
JfTheophilus,
I suggest you listen to and watch "Sloshfest 08 Glory Dance Trance." If there was no music, it wouldn't have had that kind of effect. If there were no lyrics, it wouldn't make much difference. It's almost that way, anyway. And look at what the results were. Certain rhythms and sounds do this. Cerimonial music styles all over the world which are used to invoke "gods" or "spirits" are not too different from each other.
Posted by: carol | September 04, 2008 at 08:08 AM
"The music is controlling you"
Music cannot control a believer, it is ridiculous to say otherwise.
I am also a musician, although not professionally. I have a massive amount of experience in this area, especially with worship. Frankly Carol, I think that you have gone off into the delves of legalism. Has God ordained that a particular series of chords is sinful? Don't let your personal scruples take on the title of the law of God.(Romans 14) Don't infringe on the Christian liberty of others on behalf of your own precept. The pharasees were experts at this. If a church uses the genre of rap to praise the Living God, so as long as God is praised amen! Carol, if you want to stick to praising God with music on the cutting edge of the 18th century then so be it, so long as you are praising God. The genre is not what is important. The type of percussion is not what is important. The humble and heartfelt worship is.
Posted by: prodigal | September 04, 2008 at 08:48 AM
Sweet now I can play Guitar Hero to something more edifying!
Posted by: Sergio | September 04, 2008 at 10:56 PM
Prodigal
I am a professional musician and do more than just teach. I have had years of formal training and even more of performance. I am married to a professional musician and most of our friends are professional musicians. We have traveled extensively in Europe thirteen summers in a row studying the culture and music. However, you need more than "massive experience" to understand. Have you studied the subject in depth? I have.
Here are only some of the study materials that explain the music/worship problem: "Crisis in Christian Music" by Dr. Jack Wheaton, "Crisis in Christian Music,the Paganization of Worship"-same author, "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement" by Dan Lucarini, "Let Those Who Have Ears to Hear" by Kimberly Smith, and "The Dark Side of the Purpose Driven Church" by Noah Hutchings. These books prove my point in print beyond a shadow of a doubt. The authors have done extensive study on the subject. Have you? For example, do you know what actually happens to your body when exposed to the type of music we're discussing?
By the way, are you playing the tired old Pharisee card?
Posted by: carol | September 05, 2008 at 12:24 AM
Are all of us musicians gonna have a fight? I'm afraid this might be another "meat sacrificed to idols" thing here. I'm a trained (though not pro anymore) musician and former teacher, and I'm aware of what you're talking about, Carol. I agree that the music is designed to evoke an emotional response. But I'm not sure I agree that music in and of itself is necessarly sinful. I can't worship to rap music, not because I think that rap is inherently sinful, but that the associations with the genre of music aren't glorifying to God. There are others, however, who can worship to rap. We have to be discerning when it comes to Christian music, since you're absolutely right that so many songs are self-centered instead of God-centered, but I don't think we necessarily need to through the entire genre of christian music out the window. Nor should we discard those beautiful 18th century hymns, whose lyrics are so glorifying to God. I'm looking forward to how we're going to sing the songs in Revelation.
Posted by: Christy | September 05, 2008 at 12:47 AM
This aint such a bad idea, yet we shall see this baby in a graveyard of relevance soon.
Posted by: Benjamin C | September 05, 2008 at 03:56 AM
Great Carol, I applaud you for your accomplishments. Now, you have yet to address the substance of my comments. Instead you have listed books that may or may not be based on people's personal experiences. Instead why don't we turn to the scripture, better yet why don't you, as I already have in my previous comment. Read deep. What scripture do you have to defend your sectarian legalistic position? Are you saying certain chord progressions or genres of music are inatley sinful? Are you proposing that involuntary physical reaction occurs by exposure to a specific genre of music? That is what it sounds like to me. That tired old Pharisee card(nice reverence of the scripture by the way) is a lesson you fail to heed.
Posted by: prodigal | September 05, 2008 at 07:10 AM
Um...prodigal LOL - "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" You have the temerity to say that to Carol when you haven't answered my response to your post? When are you going to "read deep" and answer my post to you?
I ask you - what scripture, in context mind you, are you using to support your comments and name calling? I think I'll go ahead and take issue with your terminology now.
a.
Please explain how contending that "praise" should exalt, magnify, direct people to, and reflect the Holy One of Israel, is legalism. Before you answer, be sure to go back and read the box (Guitar Praise).
b.
Please explain how mimicking known satanists would be edifying, righteous, or holy behavior for a Christian.
c.
Please provide us with your understanding of where, specifically, Jesus Christ currently is and what is going on in His presence. Now, before you answer, remember scripture and those men who had the occasion to be in His presence, in His 'natural' state and their reaction. Now, tell us how you see these men using anything like this product to praise Jesus Christ, or to reflect Him, or to be used as amusement for His followers.
Posted by: walksbyf8h | September 05, 2008 at 11:19 AM
I'm well aware that music can, and does, evoke strong emotional responses from people. I just don't think "strong emotional responses" are INHERENTLY evil. If YOU feel inappropriately sexual when listening to rock, or inappropriately violent when listening to rap, or you feel something inappropriate when listening to venerable old hymns for that matter, YOU should avoid whatever genre of music it is that's causing you to stumble. If Prodigal, Christy, and I can listen to the genre of music that evokes something inappropriate in you, without the same strong physiological and emotional response you experience, then what we listen to is a personal matter between ourselves, our consciences, and God.
Posted by: Barb | September 05, 2008 at 11:23 AM
if certian "beats" of music are evil then Habakkuk (3:1)
was in sin....as he prophecied! you HAVE to accept the fact that "wild, enthusiastic, and passoinate beat" is in the bible (study "shigionoth")
as a worship leader for 12 years and a musician who has toured in the past i am sensitive to both sides. i don't like "rock" music in a Sunday morning setting. i dont think it is good for a bunch of kids jamming in a sanctuary to be called a worship service.especially when they have no concern for the elderly amoung them. what i see in a lot of churches lacks reverence,(this is a serious thing we are involved in folks! we need to revere Christ as we gather together)and most of what passes for christian music today is so weak doctrinally. i see/hear alot that is not rich and God glorifying. (with the exception of the reformed hiphop stuff...so rich and awesome that it will make you cry...google "shai linne" )
BUT!!! getting together with some christian brothers/sisters on a saturday night to jam together is awesome. we must consider the fact that the Lord is blessed us with the ability to get together and play a myriad of music forms. some for church, and some for our own pleasure (have you read Ecclesiates lately?)
i read a couple of those books listed in a previous post...they do not make the case. sorry...but they have fallen victom to an unbalanced "reactionary" theology. they hate a certain music, so therefore it is evil..that is silly.
the answer is in the middle somewhere. i think that we can engage in some God glorifying music projects, but not all of them belong in the setting of church.
i also think about the fact that every tribe and tongue will worship the Lord...just like skin color, cultures, and languages i love the fact that God gave all these people groups a music style all thier own. why? to glorify Him!
look around you at nature...how diverse and awesome it is.
God has done the same with music you know....
there aint nothing like the great hymns of the faith though....
when you hear a hymn being played, you know it's church!! nothing sounds like a hymn... am i right?
i'll end there
Posted by: tom harvey | September 05, 2008 at 01:23 PM
"Please provide us with your understanding of where, specifically, Jesus Christ currently is and what is going on in His presence."
He is currently serving as High Priest at the right hand of the Father. (Hebrews 8:1-2)Need I go further?
"Please explain how mimicking known satanists would be edifying, righteous, or holy behavior for a Christian"
Let me first ask you a question, what is a Satanist? I am unsure that you are aware of what you are talking about. Also, I find nothing in common with the praise and worship of God through various styles of music with Satanism. We as believers are not to forsake the cultural identity of the time in which we live. Each of us have been placed at the perfect time and culture according to the soveriegn will of God. What style of music is inatley holy?
"I ask you - what scripture, in context mind you, are you using to support your comments and name calling? I think I'll go ahead and take issue with your terminology now."
I call it as I see it, I am judging rightly. At times strong language is permissible and beneficial. What I was speaking of with Carol was the doctrine of Christian liberty. I do believe that this is something that escapes her grasp for one reason or another. Check out Romans 14 for the basis of this doctrine. Also a nice teaching on this subject has been made available by Sproul; dated 9/03/08 "Christian Liberty and the Weak."
Paul lays out this doctrine again in 1 Cor 10:23-31.
"Now, tell us how you see these men using anything like this product to praise Jesus Christ, or to reflect Him, or to be used as amusement for His followers."
This is a product for kids, is it not? Anyway, my commentary focused on the concept of legalism in worship; that one genre is holy and therefore fit for worship and praise.
"Please explain how contending that "praise" should exalt, magnify, direct people to, and reflect the Holy One of Israel, is legalism. Before you answer, be sure to go back and read the box (Guitar Praise)."
Uhh, whatever. Please allow me to educate you, in a extremely simple way, on what legalism is and is not. If I were to decide to worship God via rap music (with appropriate lyrics made for worship) and some Christian were to rebuke me for using the vehicle of rap, that individual is guilty of the sin of legalism. However rebuking the legalistic person of her sin is not legalism, it is a righteous act of judgment meant to correct.
"You have the temerity to say that to Carol when you haven't answered my response to your post? When are you going to "read deep" and answer my post to you? "
I never saw your post.
Are you suggesting that the Psalms are the only legitimate means of muscial worship?
All this aside, getting down to the basis of this subject, what is your interpretation of this:
"To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself an not under the Law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I mught save some."
"LOL...well, I'm not surprised since I smell milk on your breath."
1Tim4:12 Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young...
I am 29, 4kids, many bills, wife, and I love Jesus and I am contiually having my mind renewed. Remember who you once were.
Posted by: prodigal | September 05, 2008 at 02:23 PM
All I get on Shigionoth is "a lyric poem probably accompanied by music.
"Unbalanced reactionary theory"? Prove it.
I grasp more than I want to, prodigal.
I wasn't going to attempt this but I will share some information.
The human body is extremely sensitive to music. It affects our emotional state and the major systems and organs in our bodies by sending vibrations through them. So we hear AND feel music. Low frequency vibrations can cause extensive damage to the human body.
Also, scientists have confirmed that we all possess an ancient protective device called the "flight or fight" syndrome. Sharp, loud sounds represent "danger" to our instructional and protective subconscious mind. The brain responds immediately, sending signals to the endocrine gland system that can be used to fight off a surprise attack or escape by having enough additional energy to run from danger. The adrenal glands are part of this system and produce adrenaline.
Loud rock (rap, hip-hop, heavy metal, grunge, whatever "relevant to the world") music triggers the production of adrenaline and the "fight or flight" syndrome. It's a rush. You get high on the music. You get high on your own adrenaline which is addictive even though it is produced by your own body. When your body feels this good to you, you are in a flesh mode, not a spritual one. The problem is that people don't realize this. After time they want a bigger fix, and then a bigger one, and so it goes.--- This is based on books by Dr. Jack Wheaton.
Also, we hear "We can use any contemporary music style in our praise and worship services, and God will accept it." Contemporaries label any rules and regulations that would limit music choices as "legalistic." They repeat this mantra as much as they repeat the lyrics to their music. Unconditional acceptance has completely neutralized the role of biblical discernment. This is closely aligned with the tolerence movement that says that we can "come as we are." We come as we are but we shouldn't STAY where we are. "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind." Romans 12:2
Acceptance doctrine is so pervasive in some fellowships that Christians are no longer allowed to question another Christian's behavior or personal preferances without being accused of judging them. If you dare quote chapter and verse from the Bible, you will be called a Pharisee. This type of thinking imitates the world's attitude of tolerance, which includes accepting every kind of lifestyle and behavior because all lifestyles are equal.--based on Dan Lucarini's book.
So, that's some of it in a very small nutshell. It's just the tip of the iceberg. I won't get started on the repetative trance music.
Prodigal, I didn't go into detail in previous comments because I have so very little time for it. I know the verses I want to use but I have been terribly distracted. Three weeks ago Thursday my niece tried to take her life. She was in a bad marriage among other things. She has two little girls and she is five months' pregnant with another baby girl. She took pills and is in a coma. Her body continues to function but tests show that she is gone, and unless there is an intervention from God her family who loves her will probably have to let her go after the baby is able to live on her own. The baby could be severely damaged but it is impossible to know without major tests. I'm not saying this for any other reason but to explain why I can't answer you in depth as I would like. Sorry.
Posted by: carol | September 05, 2008 at 11:54 PM
Yawn. Personally, I'd rather play Guitar Hero (and HAVE played it) than some cheesy imitation that tries to come acrss as "Christian". See ya in the bargain bins. :)
Posted by: Belle | September 06, 2008 at 12:05 AM
Carol, I'm not challenging you, but I do want to understand your argument. What I'm reading is that, because contemporary music makes us feel good physically, it can't be used for the worship of God. Am I understanding you rightly?
Posted by: Christy | September 06, 2008 at 01:02 AM
lol @ Belle. Excellent point.
Barb - I don't recall anyone telling you that you could not do whatever you take to doing. You are right - it is between you and God. However, with all due respect - it is rare that your posts do not comment directly to others when they see things biblically more conservative than you. I speak up to you because these people are standing against the world. They are, as scripture tells them, 'aliens in this world'. It's more than fine with me if people identify as Christian and have other tastes in food, music, etc. What I speak to is when a visitor to a blog complains about pretty much everything on the blog but then states or infers that they are 'on the team', yet they tear it down.
Understandably, you question why what you like to do is a problem for anyone else. I could pose the very same question to you. Why would you come to a conservative Christian blog to voice liberal views about the Faith? There are plenty of liberal blogs that fall in line with what I've seen your comments to be but I do not understand why it's okay for you to challenge what is posted. Nor do I understand some of the comments toward those Christians that agree with the posts. The places where a conservative, bible-believing Christian are welcome to 'hangout' are few and far between. From my perspective, and if I'm wrong I apologize, it looks like you're spoiling for a fight not honest discussion.
I've no problem that everyone has their own opinion. However consider that conservative Christians stand against the culture and liberal/emergent Christianity. Whether it is okay to BE a liberal or emergent Christian is between the person and God, as you've inferred. But, scripture is clear that we are to contend for the Faith and stand against the culture. It is also clear that we are to encourage one another. So, if I see a saint trying earnestly, I'm going to support their efforts as well as encourage them.
If I cannot imagine Jesus enjoying 'praise', then I'm not going to do it . If I cannot imagine sitting through a particular movie with Him sitting right next to me, then I'm not going to watch it. I'm not going to laugh at the worlds jokes, watch their movies, go to the nightclub or concert, to be 'relevant' and deceive myself that I'm a missionary.
Jesus said, "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? IT IS NO LONGER GOOD FOR ANYTHING, except to be thrown out and trampled by men." (MT 5:13 - ESV)
Jesus never blended with the world - Never. Jesus would never think to use something from the world to worship His Father. If Jesus had had as liberal a view of scripture as has been espoused in this thread, He never would have been crucified. His being kind to social outcasts was not the same as being liberal toward scripture or its authority over His or the peoples actions. Never did He do anything in proclaiming the Gospel that contradicted the Word of God's commands, precepts, and principles.
My comments are not about whether you or anyone else can listen to, watch, or participate in activities and not act upon it. This is about, striving for personal HOLINESS and imitating The Master in these Last Days. There are scores of prominent Christians who thought that they could indulge in various pursuits as they saw fit, without any thought to who they were in Christ and Who had purchased them - it cost them dearly.
:-)
Walksbyf8h
Posted by: walksbyf8h | September 06, 2008 at 02:44 AM
"All I get on Shigionoth is "a lyric poem probably accompanied by music"
i don't want to call you a lier...maybe you just didn't study enough!
you also said: "Unbalanced reactionary theory"? Prove it.
you just proved it for me! how?
you totally diregarded all the other aspects of my post. focused and responded on the things you don't like, REFUSED to really research the term i gave you. these are the earmarks of reactionary theology. i don't expect someone ewho is unteachable to react any other way....very sad
Posted by: tom harvey | September 06, 2008 at 04:34 AM
I'm so sorry, Carol. I don't agree with everything you've said, although you do make some good points. I personally, and many other people I know, just enjoy music for the melody, the beat, and the meaning of the words, but we don't go into some kind of adrenaline-fueled trance or let it rule our lives. I know some people do, though. That's where I think discernment comes in. Anyway, though, it breaks my heart to read what you're going through, because something similar happened once to a friend of mine, and although she survived she ended up losing the baby. I will be praying for healing and comfort for your niece, her daughters, and the rest of your family.
Posted by: Lola | September 06, 2008 at 06:08 AM
tom harvey
So I'm unteachable because I don't agree with you about CCM? I'm a liar because I Googled six Bible dictionaries and couldn't find any more than I did? That's REFUSING to research? That's what is very sad if you think that. I didn't comment on other aspects of your post because as I said, I don't have the time and your post isn't exactly at the top of my priority list right now for reasons I have already explained. You might want to do more research if you are a worship leader. But if you don't, I would never infer that you are a liar. By the way, some of the most beautiful, spirit-filled worship music is written by an English composer by the name of John Rutter. He is alive and well now, not from the "cutting edge of the 18th century."
Christy, what I'm saying is that we have to be very careful because we can be so deceived by the music we use to worship. I gave out the information of what your body does when exposed to sound. Those are the facts proven by science, whether some people believe them or not. Some churches ( or fellowships or whatever they call themselves) are pushing the envelope to the edge and over the edge now. If they weren't, no one would be concerned, do scientific research, and write books about it. Chris wouldn't be posting the "worship" services that have been using music in the wrong way. If it wasn't for the certain kinds of music in thoses videos, then people wouldn't be able to react in the way they do. I'm not saying we shouldn't enjoy music. Quite the contrary. I teach it and perform it in church and other settings. I'm saying we should be informed and extremely careful with the music we use for worship. At which point does it become bad? No one knows. That's why we have to be informed.
Chris has posted many videos which demonstrate what I'm referring to. They show how very, very easy it is to get out of hand with music. He even asked if we could "spot the golden calf." Sloshfest '08 is one of them. Do these people think they're worshipping God? Are they? Or are they in an adrenaline rush or in a trance-like state? Should they risk it if there's any question at all?
Thanks Lola for your concern. It's been very hard.
Posted by: carol | September 06, 2008 at 03:40 PM
carol should know by my post i don't really like CCM. if you read my post... if you only would read and study instead of parroting what you learned in a book. if you look at my post you will see that we agree more than you realize.
we need to go to the word of God for our information...not "science". the Word should settle this.
not wisdom of men.
this pasage in Habbakuk must be considered amoung many when we say stupid things like "evil beats" it's just like those silly KJV only people. reactionary theology.
again i say.... in a church setting ther MUST be reverence for His holiness. but David, Joshua, and Habakuk show us that God seeks to use our "fight or fright" through music. it's just a biblical fact that cannot be denied. dig into this Carol...
really study it and you'll see that i am right. please...i am not trying to insult you, i am not trying to convince you that "rock" music in church is good....i don't like it either,
but the bible does have these passages regarding music.
if you really, slowly, read my previous post... i think God gave so many beautiful races a certain type of music to worship Him. close your eyes and try to imagine the beautiful, majestic Etheopian people...the brightly colored garb of eastern Indians...noy imagine them worshiping Jesus in thier native language and music? isn't it beautiful?
liek everything else in this fallen world, the enemy has counterfeited this beauty. when man is redeemed, and repented he can examine the music of his culture and find the beauty therein.
R.C. Sproul has done a wonderful study on this. if you don't trust me can you trust him?
Here os the Strong's definition of shigionoth:
7692 Shiggayown (shig-gaw-yone');
or Shiggayonah (shig-gaw-yo-naw'); from 7686; properly, aberration, i.e. (technically) a dithyramb or rambling poem:
KJV-- Shiggaion, Shigionoth.
So what is a dithyramb?
dith·y·ramb (d¹th"¹-r²m", -r²mb") n. 1. A frenzied, impassioned choric hymn and dance of ancient Greece in honor of Dionysus.
Would a shiggaion fit in most church services today? I think not. could it at times be a part of the service - as much so as the traditional hymn? i'm not sure!
The type of music isn't new. Satan has perverted it!
In Chapter 3 verse 2 Habakkuk was crying out. There was tension in the spirit of the words, and the tension or unrest speaks of attack or warfare. This warfare could be expressed in wild, frenzied music. (fight or flight,as you accuratly put it) This is what shigionoth is. This was during tephillah. One could interpret this as either a ‘storm’ selah or a ‘warfare’ selah.
there are legalist amoung us who think that when a person gets saved, regardless of where they ar from, their nationality, or language...they should read only KJV and sing only Hymns
you have to admit that this is nonsense?
c'mon Carol! i know you can come around. i think it is important to come around on this issue.... because false worship and blasphmous praise abounds in our "churches" today
and we need to articulate what God's word says about the issue.
i tell ya Carol, it is much more effective when i agree with people that beats are not evil, but what we call "worship" is.
i have spent years praying and studying about these things...
i have actaully repented of some of the music i found myself integrating into a worship service. i know of what i speak and i hope you can learn from a guy like me.
Posted by: tom harvey | September 06, 2008 at 05:09 PM
I'm a "silly KJV only people".... and I think Guitar Hero is fun. At least you know what you're getting... it IS secular, it looks secular, it sounds secular, it smells secular..... it isn't trying to be something it isn't. Unlike cheesy imitations that try to make you think they are Christian. "Christian" merchandise really annoys me. That's why I get a kick out of this website.
Guitar Hero = real thing.
Guitar Praise = wanna-be.
KJV = real thing
All other versions = wanna-be.
Same stuff, different day.
:) OK, I am ready to be blasted! Taking cover!! :D
Posted by: Belle | September 06, 2008 at 05:44 PM
Belle, you are silly!
how can i blast someone with the name "Belle"
i'd much rather give you a hug and talk about the things we agree on....which i am sure are many.
Posted by: tom harvey | September 06, 2008 at 09:28 PM
OK, I don't have much patience for this but here goes.
Is it just me or does anyone else find Tom's posts hard to follow?
Why are you doing this, Tom? You say you don't like CCM but then you say Habbakuk was crying out and it could have been wild and frenzied music. I'm in a very (for lack of a better word) delicate state of mind right now and you're really playing a number on me. You seem to be arguing back and forth with yourself. You seem to be saying it's good but it's not good. It sounds like you're trying to make two opposing points. So is it good or not?
As for my study, God made science because God made everything. I'm not talking about evolution here. God gave protective devises in our bodies for a reason because we are fearfully and wonderfully made. God is the maker of science!
I never said "stupid things" about "evil beats." Where did you get that quote?
"Parroting" a book isn't a bad thing, either. Isn't it a by-product of studying? Haven't you ever written a paper and included quotes and footnotes? You yourself said that "R C Sproul" had done a study and then you wrote about the "Strong's" definition. Wasn't that the same "parroting" that you accused me of? I studied my books, you studied your material. That's how we get our information, isn't it?
I didn't say anything about other cultural music being bad. I teach a lot of music from different cultures in my classroom. Where did you get that? You're reading a lot of things into my posts that aren't there.
I agree that Satan perverted music. That's really a point that I was trying to make. I also know that this is nothing new. Again, I am referring to the perverted CCM movement that uses music in the wrong way as Chris has shown us.
I think we agree on many, many things but I'm really not sure because of your disjointed posts. But as I said before, I'm in a weird state of mind because of the family situation that we have been living with for three weeks. Maybe someone else can make sense of it.
Posted by: carol | September 07, 2008 at 12:29 AM
Thank you for clarifying, Carol. I don't know that I agree totally with you, since our bodies react to most activities involuntarily, including prayer. But I do agree that we should be discerning about what we bring into our church. There are many "christian" songs out there that, though not objectionable just to listen to, are not songs that worship the Lord. I think we just disagree about what makes them unsuitable.
Off-topic, I'm sorry for what your family's going through. I'll be praying for you.
Posted by: Christy | September 07, 2008 at 12:43 AM
Please, let's not get into name-calling. Who decides just what counts as "liberal" and "conservative" Christianity anyway? Some of my politically liberal, nominally Christian acquaintances think I'm terribly backward for being anti-abortion and believing Jesus really performed miracles. On the other hand, I've seen a fair amount of websites on which YOU would be decried as a liberal unless you believe the earth is flat, because the Bible refers to the earth as a "circle," not a sphere.
As for why I keep coming back to this blog, maybe it's for the same reason Chris keeps digging up Todd Bentley and Paula White videos on YouTube. Chris has made a lot of good points and brought up a number of significant issues, and he allows dissention and debate in the comments, and I respect that. But I believe that some of what goes on here is an abomination to God. I've seen hypocrisy, rudeness, bullying, and a lot of venom directed at fellow believers. There are people much more caustic than I am, but no one ever says a word to them . . . because they adhere to the "party line." And I just can't believe that God is anywhere near as grieved by Kerusso t-shirts and Christian video games as by, say, the human suffering wrought by epidemics, war, and famine.
Posted by: Barb | September 07, 2008 at 06:09 AM
If someone were to take a great psalm or Bible passage & put it to a beat that evokes emotion, is that wrong b/c it would be considered manipulation?
Let me put it this way & perhaps it will not only make sense but help clear the air. This is an imitation that comes off a little cheesy, however there are real Christians out there who like guitar hero but want cleaner songs. Someone had asked if we should copy pagans & satanists... I don't think that writing a rock song but making it about Jesus or Biblical is wrong just b/c a pagan started the genre. If that were the case that logic would remove us from a good many things. Even music itself.
It says in Scripture that the first musician was Jubal. He & a number of innovators were in the line of Cain which somewhat implies that he is unrighteous. If the line of Cain was wicked (I understand this is an assumption), & we are not to copy any aspects of the wicked, then we shouldn't play any music, nor should we live in tents, own livestock, or use metal tools. (Genesis Chapter 4). Obviously this is not the case b/c God's ppl are instructed in & have used all the above..
My contention is simply this. Music is a preference.. naturally it has an effect on us (our brains have to take in the vibrations & process them in order for us to "hear"), these effects can be used & manipulated by musicians, lyrics are the main substance that determines a songs health. Be wise in how you listen. Judge the song's theological value then base it on your own preference.
that's my two cents.. thanks.
@belle Silly Belle, the KJV has served it's purpose & been used to teach many of us the precepts of God, but there are many better translations out there that can give us more accurately those precepts. If it's something you'd like to research then I heartily recommend the thorough work of James White on the issue in his book "The King James Only Controversy." Anyways, be blessed.. thanks for the other more balances opinions.
Posted by: JfTheophilus | September 07, 2008 at 11:25 PM
Walksbyf8h,
I have taken the time to respond to your comment. What is your response, or should I assume you have been compassionatley corrected?
Carol,
May God bless you and your family in this difficult time.
"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind." Romans 12:2
Why are Christians using the above verse as justification to alienate themselves from the rest of society? What did Paul do on Mars Hill?
Worship occurs in our hearts, not in the music itself. Can a believer listen to a hymn and never give himself to true worship? Conversely, can a believer use God honoring music(meaning lyrically God honoring) of any genre to worship? OF COURSE! There is no denying the reality of this, no book or otherwise. Does the scripture tell us only to sing spiritual songs in 4/4 using an organ?
"In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in everthing charity" -Augustine
Posted by: prodigal | September 08, 2008 at 10:26 AM
A wise man knows when it's best to be quiet. But wisdom begins with 1) the fear of the Lord, and 2) a love of His Word. The answer is "No" - you've simply been dis fellowshipped just as you were on RF. Why you would be talking about your age, marital status, etc., is beyond me but it cements my original assessment of the situation and what, exactly, I'm dealing with when responding to your posts.
Since it is you who will be held responsible for the spiritual health of those five persons you mentioned, and it is you who have this amazing talent for taking scripture out of context and twisting it, I am going waste my 'breath' and give you a bit of advice. If you are wise you will get off the internet and go study the Word of God with a humble spirit. It is a really good idea to employ the use of a concordance, bible dictionary and word study (Paul never counseled Timothy about milk but others, he did). Also, I would suggest reading Murray, Spurgeon, Ryle, and Henry. They are all three biblically sound and worthy of reading....repeatedly. Your response to my post was positively breathtaking.
I have no doubt that following bit of genuine advice will be ignored since each and every one of your posts, that I've read, are an effort to show how smart you believe yourself to be. The Word of God; it's principles, precepts, and commands, have never been considered in any of your posts. From your first post on RF until now, the pattern has not changed which enabled me to notice the similarity to the one who originally asked, "Did God actually say....".
So, per Proverbs 18:2, Romans 16:17 and Titus 3:10, no further comment is required of me.
Posted by: walksbyf8h | September 08, 2008 at 11:10 PM
I don't know about that either, Prodigal. I think that it would be unwise to use certain genres in a general worship service, such as rap or heavy metal. I do believe that in personal worship, one can listen to these and worship (if it's their thing), but in a general worship, there's more to think of than just what the worship leader can worship with. Rap or heavy metal carry associations (foul language, promotion of violence, etc.) that, even if they're not in the lyrics, might hinder some others in the congregation from being able to worship. Also, in these styles, the lyrics are somewhat hard to make out, so if lyrics are the main thing, what would be the point in using a style that doesn't have clear lyrics? So, while I don't believe that music is inherently evil in and of itself, some genres would be better avoided for love's sake, so that the body might be edified and not distracted from worship.
Posted by: Christy | September 09, 2008 at 12:20 AM
What is RF? I can't say that I have commented on much, and I can't recall anything called RF.
walksbyf8h, may both our flawed ideas be reconcilled on that day.
Hear is a qoute from one my favorite teachers on musical worship, maybe he will have some credibility with you folks:
"I consider the third step for growth in the Christian life to be that of worship. I think we are living in a time of incredible crisis of our understanding of what worship is...Worship now has degenerated into entertainment or pop psychology, and it involves anything but the sacrifice of praise and reverence to a Holy God. I know that there are all different styles and shapes and forms of worship. But however our worship is framed it must focus on God, and His holiness...Our spirits must be moved to a sense of awe and reverence to Him."
-Dr RC Sproul from "Five Things Every Christian Needs"
Posted by: prodigal | September 09, 2008 at 07:16 AM
Also one other comment if I might,
"(Paul never counseled Timothy about milk but others, he did)"
The principal applies here. Come on. I suggest that your usage of "context" is hypersensitive and manipulative. Surley you can see that believers should hold a complimentary view of fellow believers, no matter how old physically or spiritually. Some are elder in the faith indeed, but not higher in status, but in the service of leadership. I am willing to learn, and open minded. You however, seem to be aggresive and incompassionate.
Posted by: prodigal | September 09, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Ooh, prodigal, you've been singlehandedly disfellowshipped! And told, by someone who clearly spends a good deal of time online, to get off the Internet. Now how is THAT not hypocrisy?
Posted by: Barb | September 09, 2008 at 03:17 PM
Does this include Kum Ba Yah, Michael Row the Boat Ashore, and (my favorites) the Peter Paul and Mary songbook for Methodist youth groups and whoever else doesn't know the difference between Christian music and hippies singing about drugs? (yes, the specific denominational reference comes from experience!)
Seriously, though ... what ever happened to getting an acoustic guitar and learning to play it? They sell them at Hastings for crying out loud! A boy at my church got one for his birthday, and I happily passed along files of chords I have for hymns and some of the *better* praise choruses.
Posted by: Mark S. | September 09, 2008 at 06:33 PM
I just have enough time to say just look at the "worship" services that Chris has posted. Listen to the music and watch the peoeple respond. Enough.
I can't spend any more time with this. Hurricane Ike is apparently heading straight for us. We've got to board up the house when our employer decides it's LATE enough to let us off. We even have a STUPID football game scheduled for Thursday night, the night before it's supposed to hit. We're going to be blown to oblivion but heaven help us if we miss a STUPID football game. My husband's a band director and he HAS to be there, so I guess I'll be boarding up by myself in the dark, or we'll have to do it in the rain and wind. The second floor windows are going to be fun.
Posted by: carol | September 10, 2008 at 08:05 AM
Barb,
You crack me up, may you not be disfellowshipped as a result!
Posted by: prodigal | September 10, 2008 at 09:04 AM
I was a band director, and I totally feel for you and your husband, Carol. I'll be praying for you guys.
Posted by: Christy | September 11, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Thanks, Christy. The football game was cancelled and so was school for the week. We are told that Ike will make a northerly turn and go in near Galveston. So far it hasn't made the turn and is coming straight at us. We live near Corpus Christi. Most everyone is waiting it out to see if we need to board up. For us, boarding up is a MAJOR effort. We have 27 windows and some of them are on the second floor. Please pray for the people who it eventually hits, wherever they are.
Posted by: carol | September 11, 2008 at 04:49 PM
Will ths game work on like a wii??
Posted by: King | September 27, 2008 at 03:36 PM
I don't see any problem with this at all. It won't be long before somebody will hack it and figure out how to put any song they want on there. Some good solid worship songs would be alot of fun. Sorry guy but you are wrong on this one. Alot of good Christian (and I don't throw that term around freely) people I know are excited about this.
Posted by: C. Decker | October 01, 2008 at 09:09 PM
Hey bloggers....try to remember that what you write will be read by many; even some who are not believers. What I've read thus far sounds very mean-spirited. In the big picture, when it's all over, will you want to be responsible for someone missing heaven? Let's play nice. Let's love one another and agree to disagree.
Posted by: JLedbetter | October 13, 2008 at 10:55 PM