The Fruit of Purpose-Driven / Seeker-Sensitive Methods

Granger Community Church is considered to be one the brightest stars in the Purpose-Driven Church universe and is the 6th most influential church in America. Thousands of churches have purchased, downloaded and preached Granger's sermons. Past and present pastors from Granger are considered 'rock stars' and thought leaders in purpose-driven / seeker-sensitive circles.

But how effective are these Purpose-Driven / Seeker-Sensitive methods at making true converts and true Christian disciples?

Well, Granger just released the results of their Reveal Now survey and the data is bleak. In fact, Granger and their 'pastoral' staff get an F. Here are some of the low lights.

47% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in salvation by grace. (This means they are NOT Christians, regardless of whether or not they identify themselves as those who are 'Growing in Christ' or 'Christ Centered'. The correct term for them would be 'false converts')

57% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in the authority of the Bible.

56% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe Jesus is the only way to eternal life.

This is exactly what we should expect from churches that spend their time trying to be 'relevant' and scratch itching ears rather than preaching and teaching God's Word in season and out of season. Or to put it another way, Christless Christianity is completely impotent when it comes to making Christians and Christian Disciples. These survey results prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

These results are a complete train wreck and highlight the fact that it is time to abandon the circus church approach once and for all and get back to the 'boring' and 'irrelevant' work of preaching and teaching God's Word, the Lord's Supper and proclaiming Jesus Christ as crucified for our sins.

Comments

[Pastor Frank]

Unfortunately, this is not a "Granger" thing. This is typical of evangelicals (whatever that word even means anymore). Recently, 56% of "Evangelicals" said Jesus is not the only way. When I was in seminary back in '98, over 50% of Southern Baptist (I'm no longer southern baptist) men believed Jesus sinned while on earth! Fact is, the apostasy of the last days is upon us. We've got work to do.

[Robert Talbert]

The "Change you can believe in" slogan on each of those slides is terrifically ironic.

Any word on whether GCC is going to change its ways as a result of these data, like Willow Creek has (sort of) done?

[Kairos]

This is direct by-product of entertaining goats rather than feeding sheep. We now have entire auditoriums full of people pretending to 'do church' yet they have no clue what Christianity is and certainly have no clue about simple basic Christian doctrines.

[Jeff T.]

Wow - everything you say is true. Except for the fact that you convenient left out - that there pastor was humbled and concerned by the results and is making sweeping changes as a result (including a mid-week focus on Bible teaching). It's amazing - they're making the changes you've been campaigning for and instead of saying "praise God", you're just kicking sand in their faces. It seems to me like you're rejoicing in their failures more than you're rejoicing with the positive changes. But then again, I've never found these types of blogs to be exactly "open" to self examination...

I know that God will bless our BROTHERS and SISTERS at Granger as they seek to more effectively communicate the truth of God's word.

[The Curator]

Jeff,

We are hopeful that the changes Granger intends to make will help produce Christian disciples. Granger has no intention of changing how they do their church services. Instead, they intend to offer Wednesday night Bible studies. That is a step in the right direction.

The bigger issue here is that there are still THOUSANDS of churches that have bought into this bankrupt approach to church and it is time kill this seeker-sensitive lunacy once and for all.

[Kairos]

Jeff, - these seeker-sensitive prognosticators have been arrogantly claiming that God has been blessing them and that they've discovered the secrets to growing churches. These men have been held up as examples that we should follow and men who we should listen to. Yet, these men have refused to listen to the voices of reason and valid critics who have been saying all along that their methods are not producing true Christian converts. Instead, they've ignored and marginalized their critics and continued acting like masters of the universe. These men need to step down from their positions. These are HUGE blunders. If these were CEO's (and the pretend to be) then the share holders would be demanding their resignations. It's time for the Old Guard to take back over and break up these theological whore houses and get the church re-focused on the Gospel and God's Word.

[merry]

Just a thought . . . let's not accuse of anyone being arrogant. Instead, let's lift up our brothers and sisters in Christ and pray that they'll see their errors and learn from them. Let's pray that God will lift up some Godly leaders in the next generations to come who will be light among the darkness. And lastly, let's pray that WE will be light, that WE can be the ones to set good examples.

Let's not judge and accuse. There is no time for that. Let's extend grace to our brothers and then teach repentance, like Jesus did.

[walksbyf8h]

merry - what part of "false converts = non-Christians" is hard to understand? I hate to be blunt, but enough is enough. Yes, we should pray for them. But quite frankly, I'm tired of the pablum and those christians who would rather avoid conflict and seem "nice" rather than standing up for the One Who died for them. Not only that, they refrain from using the sword that He provided to deal with outright heresy and blasphemy.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (ESV)
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

[merry]

"walksbyf8h"--

Maybe you don't have very much experience working with non-Christians or new Christians at your church? Everytime a young Christian gets something wrong or sins, do you call them a false convert and tell them they need to be "purged from among you"? Do you attend Granger or know the true story? Do you think your comment accomplished anything for the kingdom or was the least bit helpful to the situation?

If enough is enough, "walksbyf8th", then why don't we all just give up? Stop preaching the gospel. Let all those Granger attendees burn in hell. That's exactly what Jesus would do.

Or not. I want you to research the situation thoroughly before giving you opinion. That's research beyond just reading blogs . . .

Proverbs 18:2 -- A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.

Granger is working to change the situation. The blog posts I've seen about this situation are much more hurtful than they are helpful.

I've been in the situation that Granger is in, and trust me, it's a whole lot different than it seems when you're in that situation and not on the outside making snide remarks about "false converts".

I hate to be so blunt, but I'm sick of Christians sitting on the sideline, making remarks and doing nothing to help the situation. I challenge you to contact Granger and ask what you can do to help. Ask for the whole story. Because honestly, you don't know. I bet you've never walked into a church like Granger in your life. I'm sure you'd be much too Godly to extend grace to filthy people like them.

[merry]

I apologize for the tone of my previous comment. Some of the remarks I made were unnecessary. I was just so flabbergasted and confused by your comment.

I truly think it is possible to be "nice" while standing up for Jesus. In fact, I think that's the only route to take.

What would seem like heresy and blasphemy to some Christians, may only just be a lack of spiritual foundation and understanding on the part of others. There needs to be a lot of communication with these people before we make assumptions. Instead, I think it's the Christians who should know better, the "Christians" who turn away from God and refuse to look back who should be purged out from the church. Not the young Christians who don't know any better and need to be taught.

Hope that makes sense.

God bless.

[KS]

The impressions given on this site about the results from Reveal-Granger survey are a little misleading. What you need to know is the the percentages they came up with included people from various stages in theirs walks; from non-believing/agnostic seekers to seasoned beleivers. The percentage is weighted to include all the congregants and that's why these percentages seem so low. I'm not a seeker-sensitive friendly guy, but let's be fair. Read the actual survey results they have on their website. I applaude them for having the guts and taking the time to see what the spiritual health of their body is and, seeker-sentive or not, all churches should consider doing this. It's a great idea.

See their website and look for the PowerPoint presentation, it lays their findings out pretty clearly.

[walksbyf8h]

merry - no problem - no offense taken.

But, please explain what portion of the scripture is not in context with this thread. Next, please explain why the use of scripture is considered snide or, failing that, what statement that I made that came across as snide. Thanks.

* * *

The point I'm trying to make, perhaps clumsily, is that being nice is not even the point or an option. This is America - not Beijing. No person in this country has any excuse for being biblically illiterate. None. We are choking on bibles here. No one in their right mind would even accept the excuse that a person can call themselves a Christian and not read the Bible.

So, what exactly would you have me or anyone who sees this in a similar light, do? Tell them? Warn them? Encourage them? Please. I deal with this and have dealt with it for the 8 years I've been a Christian. The things I've been told as to WHY folks don't have time to read scripture is sad. You don't have time to read the bible? You can download it and listen. You can go to websites and just listen.

* Please tell me - who can become a Christian without being born-again? Jesus said, "you must be born again".
* Tell me - who can be born again without repenting of their sins and receiving the free gift of Salvation? That is the Gospel.
* Tell me who can be a Christian and believe that Jesus Christ is a liar? Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life - no man comes to the Father but by Me."

Please look at Matthew 7:21-23. Those are the folks who were "niced" into church. They were made comfortable when the Gospel makes a sinner uncomfortable. They felt right at home in the church. Look at them.

Last of all, please tell me, because I have never seen in my years (before or after Salvation), where God just deserted a church - letting it go down the tubes - without a "watchman", two, or three, sounding the alarm that the Assembly is on the wrong track. He doesn't operate that way - He is Just and Righteos. For a church to get to that state, they have been ignoring/censoring/ostracizing/expelling their watchmen.

Too much has been lost because of the very position you ascribe to. Too many people are sitting in hell, right now, because of a corrupt, watered down, false Gospel and people who say that they themselves are Christians, but cannot be bothered to be honest. They would rather be "nice". Being direct is being loving, particularly when the person in question is on the fast track to hell. How can a person do what Jesus said, "Count the cost" if nice folks can't be bothered to be direct? Perhaps another and careful reading of the Gospels is needed? I believe so. Jesus was direct. He was not "nice" - not at all. But then, He cared if folks went to hell. Right? Right.

Finally, the use of Proverbs 18:2 is out of context. The screenshots, themselves, are proof, KS confirmed my assessment, and I've provided proof of my statements and answered your challenge using scripture, as well.

~ ~ ~

KS - how is it that "non-believing/agnostic seekers" (aka NON-Christians) are voting in a church? I agree that it's a great idea for a church to do with their members of The Body of Christ.

[Deborah]

I'm seeing an awful lot of posters listing the unsaved "seeker" right next to the new believer as thought they should be treated in same fashion. Do we compare a corpse and a new born baby and find them so similar? Certainly not! If you are a seeker, you are dead in your sins. If you are a new Christian, it is because God has done a work in your heart, led you to repentance and faith in His Son Jesus. You are born again! That is very different from the most well- meaning, highly interested seeker.
A sinner needs to be informed of their sins and witnessed to, explained their need for a savior, and shared the gospel with. Then they need to repent. That is entirely different from a new believer who as received the Good News with all gladness, and needs to be taught God's word so they can understand their need to grow toward sanctification. They should be practicing the means of grace (Acts 2:42) and studying scripture.
Do you see the difference in what needs to be accomplished by both groups? One needs to be brought to life, the other needs to learn about the new life they have been granted by God. Not by any means are these two groups similar.

[merry]

walksbyf8h,

"No person in this country has any excuse for being biblically illiterate. None. We are choking on bibles here. No one in their right mind would even accept the excuse that a person can call themselves a Christian and not read the Bible."

The Bible is a very unique book, because it is highly possible for a person to read it over and over again and not understand a single thing.

I've seen that happen, too. Many young Christians (especially American!!) no nothing about the ancient Hebrew culture, or even the time or context that the Bible was written in, and get so confused they don't even know what to think.

Just like Philip explained the Scriptures to the Ethiopian eunich in the desert, many non-Christians and new Christians need the Scriptures explained to them.

"So, what exactly would you have me or anyone who sees this in a similar light, do? Tell them? Warn them? Encourage them?"

There are a lot of people who make excuses for not reading the Bible because they don't want to admit that they have no clue what they're reading. :) I remember when I had no clue what I was reading! It does happen, and we need mature Christians to help the new ones out. That would be one thing we can do.

As for the rest of your comment . . . I really don't know where you got the idea that I said we shouldn't be direct. I never said that. It's possible to be direct and loving at the same time, and that's what needs to happen.

Well, I think I'm done with this website for awhile. I really need to get off the internet for a while and get my priorities straight. :)

[KS]

walksbyf8th: You ask a very good question and I agree that non-believers should not be voting in matters of the local church body. In this case though, it wasn't a vote per-se, it was a survey. But the trouble is, they are probably going to act on the results that have basically come from many unbelievers (for instance, "What would you like Granger to to differently"). Now, THAT is tantamount to a vote and that IS disturbing.

[gr8dad]

Hi guys and ladies,

I saw a post requesting that someone from the inside (or with knowledge about the situation) should weight in. I am currently serving in a church that has been flirting with the seeker-friendly, church growth models. I have seen firsthand how deceptively attractive this method of doing church as been. It was only three years ago that my eyes were opened to the concept of "false converts" and since then I have been in the battle for biblical purity in my church. It is not easy being confronting leaders about non-biblical concepts taught as scripturally sound (the one incident about Carnal Christians being a separate type of believer nearly brought me out of my seat...opening questioning your leader in a group is not easy!)
I am currently seeing a VAST decline in our attendance and finances with an ever-growing apathy for serving and being connected to this church emerging at every level. We are bleeding and the leadership can only slap on a happy face and say how good everything is going. A few comments were made implicating the people "not getting it."

I can speak of personal experience that those churches who measure their "effectiveness" by how many are showing up on Sundays and events - they lack the preaching and teaching of repentance and holiness. Additionally, they lack the conviction that the Bible is sufficient...don't get me started about the book studies that have replaced BIBLE studies....
I pray that we would lovingly rebuke, correct, pray for, and exhort any ministry or minister that lacks enough love to preach and teach the WHOLE counsel of the Word of God.

[John Meche]

I'm a little confused. Why are the figures in the pictures different from the figures in the blog posts?

[Preston]

WOW! These are absolutely heartbreaking stats! Your right, this is EXACTLY what we should expect from these false churches!

[Hank]

Why don't each of you that have issues with Granger do your own survey and see how your congregation stacks up?
Then let's compare.

Get back to me when you do that. Really. Do your own survey and ask the same questions and let's see how your body stacks up.
Because if we had more people believing what you are writing here we would see a different church across America.

The lack of faith and the quenching of the Holy Spirit today is amazing with all the biblical teaching happening.

Did all the believers in Corinth or Colosse have it all together? I believe the way I see it that Paul took time to remind them of things and to encourage them in their faith. They were all maturing in the faith. The Thessolonians believed that the they had missed the rapture. Some had quit jobs and work and gotten lazy.

And at every church today you have that same thing going on and yes you should pray that the truth will be revealed.

None of us have arrived.

Let us all be thankful for the Holy Spirit's restraining of the man of lawlessness until the time that God Almighty chooses (2Thes 2:6) and that the Holy Spirit continues to convict the world of sin, righteouness and judgment.

[Barb]

Thank you, Hank. I wonder how many of you who were quick to attack Granger did a similar survey in your own churches? Of course, I'm sure you would get very different results - not necessarily because everyone in your church is so holy and pure, but because I imagine there would be a lot of lying. I know a young woman whose Sunday school teachers always counted on her to say the right thing. She wrote the most beautiful, pious essay you can imagine as part of her church's junior-high "confirmation" program, then became an atheist when she was in high school. Nothing happened during that two-year interval to cause her to lose her faith - it just wasn't until she was 15 that she finally had the courage to articulate what was really in her mind and heart. For years she had been aching with spiritual need, but she didn't dare hint at her inner turmoil for fear of how she would be treated by her family and the rest of the congregation if she was honest about her doubts. She was a very intelligent young lady and could have been a tremendous force for Christ, but feeling unloved by God in the first place, she didn't dare risk being ostracized by the people around her, and she turned her skills to becoming an excellent fake, all the while hating herself for it.

You don't know whether the congregation at Granger is full of false converts or if it's a hub of sincere seekers. (By the way, Deborah, there's nothing wrong with being a seeker. Not everyone feels the immediate need to become a Christian after hearing one powerful sermon and a plea to come to the altar - some people prefer to ask questions, get answers, and be certain that their mind, heart, and spirit are in the same place. Is an impulsive faith really better than a rational one? And while there is a difference between the seeker and the dedicated Christian, it's not for us to judge either of them. God is the judge - seekers need our compassion, not our condemnation.) Maybe half the regular attendees at Granger are true Christians, and the other half are members of the community who feel drawn to the warmth and light of God's presence AND welcome among God's people, perhaps for the first time in their lives. Only God can read a person's heart, unless I missed the chapter in the Bible that explains how to analyze the hearts of hundreds of people at once, on the basis of numerical data.

[Barbara]

I have to agree with walksbyf8th - only members of the church should be voting on anything, and only genuine converts are supposed to be admitted into membership. It is when you allow false converts without questioning to be admitted into membership and encourage them to take leadership positions that you wind up with messes like these and many others abounding. When a church's operations stray from what is biblically laid out for them, this is what will happen. When people have no concept of regeneration, this is what will happen. When people believe that raising your hand and "making a commitment" in response to a cool show just up and makes you a brand-new creation in and of itself, this is what will happen.

John, the figures aren't different. Are you looking at the numbers in front of the figures? I got a little thrown by the "8." at first too until I looked at the rest of them and the captions above (not below) the pictures they address. But yeah, it does look at first like it's saying, "8.47%" instead of, "8. Forty-seven percent..." "9. Fifty-seven percent..."

[Barb]

Oh, so now we not only have a church full of false converts, but false converts in leadership positions too! Barbara, how do you know any of the "false converts" at Granger are in any kind of leadership position?

As for a "genuine convert" test, wouldn't you rather people be honest? Because if there's some kind of test for who should be in the congregation and who shouldn't, you're going to get just what I mentioned in my previous post - a lot of liars in your church. My young friend would have passed any "sincerity test" with flying colors. She knew EXACTLY what to say and how to say it.

We'd need to know a lot more about the administration of the survey and about the people of Granger and what really goes on there before these numbers could become at all meaningful to us. In the meantime, as has been pointed out repeatedly, these numbers indicated enough of a problem to the leadership at Granger that they're taking measures to change things. They are to be commended, not condemned.

[Joe Anstett]

Look what I found on the churches website.
“Did you accept Jesus into your life, or did you give your life to Jesus?” - Mark Beeson, Senior Pastor of Granger Community Church.
The only and last creed the church has comes under the name "prayer of salvation" "Plan of Salvation" "4 Spiritual Laws" "The Roman´s Road" or whatever. Although far from perfect, when it´s gone, Jesus looks a lot like Budda.

"Accepting Jesus into my life or heart" is that like accepting peace in my heart by listening to calm music?
His commits are found at
http://jdellis.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/surrender/

[Barbara]

Barb, you're putting words in my mouth. Don't.

[walksbyf8h]

Barb -

I would appreciate seeing the scripture to back up your comments.

[Christy]

If I posted a similar survey of my own southern baptist church family (not the denomination as a whole), with numbers similar to what we find here, could we not conclude from that data that there's a problem in my church? Would you not conclude that if almost half of the people in my church said that they didn't believe in salvation by grace, then that doctrine must not be getting taught sufficiently at my church? Then why would we not hold this church to the same standard, saying that if over half of the people in the church don't believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven or that the bible is authoritative, then these doctrines must not be being taught sufficiently? And can a person who doesn't believe these things be a Christian? If not, then half or more of that congregation are non-Christians.
Statistics are designed for drawing conclusions. Perhaps some people are being harsher than necessary, but these numbers lead to some pretty hard conclusions that this church will have to deal with.
Incidentally, I haven't polled my church, but if I came up with numbers better than these, I wouldn't figure it was just because more people were lying. I would simply figure that the doctrines were being taught there.

[Jeremiah]

I look at this like I always have. There's nothing wrong with the seeker sensitive method, but there's a lot wrong with the seeker sensitive message. The method ("Let's do cool stuff, have professional equipment, be quality in everything that we do so that we attract a lot of people") is fantastic. The message ("Let's water down the confrontational Gospel so that the people we attract will stay") is all wrong. You can have an engrossing message and still get the point across that you're going to hell unless you accept Christ.

I say kudos to Granger for having the balls to do what Willow Creek did a few years back and say, "Hey, we've just evaluated what we're doing, and it's not working. Time for a major change."

I don't think they're bragging about these stats, I think they're saying, "Wow, we've gotten it wrong. Let's fix it." (see their website and the changes they're making)

And for that, I applaud them.

[walksbyf8h]

Hi Jeremiah,

We can do no better than The Master Himself. Jesus was confrontational, direct, to the point, and could rip you quick if you were confused. He was kind but He was not nice. He didn't have "let's have an onstage, "Britany Spears dance troupe exhibition" to glorify My Father; like one seeker-sensitive, mega-church that I could mention. Or...let's invite the Gentiles (BTW, that's YOU) into the Temple. They're seeking, let's be sensitive to their felt needs and have a pork dinner. They need God - let's do some "cool stuff" to draw them in. Then, once their in, we'll do the ole 'bait-and-switch' on them on them and tell them what it really means to walk holy with Me. That's deceptive. It's exactly what Satan does, right? Bait-and-switch is his method of trapping people. There's nothing holy or righteous about the seeker-sensitive methodology.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob expects His people to do things HIS way. What our flesh desires or what we think is how it should be done is of absolutely no import. None.

1 Samuel 15:22-23 (ESV)
Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king.

Heaven is not a democracy. Heaven is not a scrubbed-clean, super-duper, America. We have no vote. There is one Ruler. No committees, consensus, etc. None. Christians are doulos of God. He is not ours.

[Barbara]

I found the video where he introduced this to his faithful and I listened to him openly just to hear what he had to say about it - he really did sound promising at first and I thought people were just being unforgiving and giving him a bad rap since he was going to use that information and really change the way they do things at Granger. He sounds so genuinely sincere and shaken and well-intentioned, but the whole thing is still missing the point that the Holy Spirit and not secular entertainment grows THE Church, and that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God and that the Word of God is not ALL ABOUT US!! It was just like last year's survey with Bill Hybels shocked to learn that their people weren't growing spiritually through their methods and pre-packaged sermons - his response to this was that such news "Ruined his day" and their answer was to do more surveys. Same thing here. Change up some times, cut down on the number of services, add some bible classes that teach you how to find yourself in the Bible, don't change content, keep it easy for the seekers, don't challenge them, absolutely no mention of God growing His church but rather that it's man's job to do it using man's methods. And this is how he intends to do it.

Having myself experienced the risen Christ through His grace and mercy and having been brought to Godly sorrow and repentance in His light in the middle of my living room, alone with Him, then to be flooded with His love and His Spirit and knowing that it is that Spirit that causes one to love Christ and desire nothing more than Him and to keep His commandments, this statement from the pastor there as the first element of the new plan grieved me and sent chills down my spine:

"Our growth is so infinitesimally small on the weekend that it might has well be flatline for the past twelve months....better late than never!...Here we go, Weekend services, let me tell you what's going to happen. We are going to increase the length of our weekend services. Just a little bit, just a little bit. Because we are no longer going to hold this experience of the palpable presence of God, the catalytic fire-lighting transforming experience of being in the presence of the risen Christ, we are not going to try and hold that for Thursday night for 1000 people. It will be on the weekend for 6000 people." (cheers and applause). We are not going to stop teaching, but we are going to add to that the experience of the risen Christ. How many of you are on a weekend service? We've had a taste of this. We've had a foreshadowing of this. How many of you are on a weekend service and heard Seth and Chase sing, "Bible Red Letters"? How many of you are on a weekend service a few weekends ago when Seth sang at a service with his guitar, "The Glory of it All"? How many of you were there? We've had a taste of moments in the weekend service so it's not like, "Finally we're gonna meet God in the weekend," many of us met God in the weekend, that's not what we're saying. We're just going to invest a focused effort for the experience of the presence of Christ, that is catalytic for life change, on the weekend. And we're gonna program for it and it's gonna take an extra two or three minutes."

Wow. You know, you can't make this stuff up. One of the most influential churches in America...? It's scary.

I don't want to sound too critical or like I'm nitpicking, because the bottom line is that it makes perfect sense to the natural (unregenerate) man, but it misses so many marks on so many ways and on so many levels. When he talks about Bible study being all about finding ourselves in there I nearly wept. He'll have really good things to say, much of what he says is technically doctrinally correct if you dig for it, but he says it in such a way that you do have to dig to find anything other than oneself in it. He'll have good things to say and then shatter it by bringing all the focus back to man and "serving God" as a means of *life enhancement*. I almost want to cry. Having the form of godliness but denying the power thereof....

Educational, at least.

[Clint]

Just noticed this one:

Curator wrote: "Granger has no intention of changing how they do their church services."

This isn't /completely/ accurate -- they're bumping their church services from 60 minutes up to 75 minutes, dropping from 5 weekend services down to 4, and changing the content to include more of their Thursday night content. Roughly quoting from the second "Count Me In" sermon preached on 8/10:
"Here's the first thing. On the weekends, we're going to have a slightly service on the weekends, because we're going to be taking the service that we've had on Thursday nights... into the weekend service."

[Christy]

I guess you have to go to Granger to get it. I didn't understand half of what Barbara quoted.

[Barbara]

Basically, what he's saying is that he's going to bring the "palpable presence of God, the catalytic fire-lighting transforming experience of being in the presence of the risen Christ" that is "catalytic for life change" to the weekend and not just keep it on Thursday nights, and that they're going to program it in so the weekend services will have to run a few minutes longer.

A. He's dictating when and where and how the living Christ is experienced which is, to put it mildly, ah...slightly misguided. Any church who believes that such a thing can be made or manufactured or timed according to their own desires has larger problems than a new man-made plan (or any song being played by Seth or Chase, with or without guitar) can fix.

B. He identified the "experience of the living Christ" as a "catalytic for life change." Ah, well, yeah, kinda, I gueeesss...the genuine experience of the living Christ is catalytic for repentance and Godly sorrow, which does certainly bring about life change - from death to eternal life and a walk in surrendered submission to and love for the almighty God and His Son, our Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ, but here again that focus - the "experience of the living Christ" as a "catalytic for life change" and not "a gift of God's grace that brings about repentance unto SALVATION" - it's a subtle but powerful message of elevating the fruit above the gardener, the gift above the giver, and leaving huge, important concepts out of the mix.

[Clint]

@ Barbara:

Re: A) -- To phrase that more kindly, one might say that they're going to start trying to have more worship on weekend services. Whereas before they had been trying to tone down the worship on weekends so as to make it more comfortable for seekers (they would only play 2 songs), they're saying "forget that" and having a normal-length singing/worship time on weekends (I think around 6 songs). They're basically saying that they think a worship service is important for believers and seekers, and so that's one thing they're changing. Of course he can't dictate where the Spirit moves -- he's just instituting a worship service, and expecting Christ's presence to be there as He promised it would be when disciples are gathered in His name.

Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of their Finney-influenced worship-style, and I fully acknowledge that their worship services very intentionally foster an emotional environment through music, lighting, and atmosphere.

Re: B) And here, I think you're right -- but sadly, these semi-Pelagian ideas are disappointingly prolific all throughout American folk-Christianity, and I don't think that they're relegated to the seeker-friendly mega-churches. I guess they might be said to take the approach that following God's laws will cause people to see benefit in their lives, and use that as a bridge to welcome them into Christian living. Frankly, I'm not terribly surprised that so many people in that church believe that salvation depends on more than sola gracia -- they definitely seem to emphasize James more than Romans in their sermons. But that's pretty common in non-Calivinist churches, and I tend to be forgiving in that area, in so far as they continue to emphasize that we cannot earn salvation (and you heard Beeson do that very clearly in the main sermon referenced here).

Despite all of their shortcomings, I've still heard some very good sermons there, and seen fruit come of it.

--clint

[Barbara]

Hi, Clint. That post was just a clarification for Christy, who had an understandably hard time muddling through the verbatim quote given.

I phrased "A" the way the pastor phrased it, using his words and formed my response based on those words. If he meant something different, then one can reasonably expect that he would have said something different.

As for "B", I'm not splitting hairs. I will again reference my post above the one you referred to in the interest of not repeating myself.

God bless!

[Clint]

I didn't find the verbatim quote to be difficult to muddle through -- I thought you started off on the right foot of your criticism, but I thought you went a bit too far in your conclusions. In watching the sermon and later reading your transcript, I didn't sense the level of pride that you're accusing him of having. Christ says He will bless us with His presence when we come to worship Him. If we take time for worship, I don't see what's so wrong about anticipating this blessing.

As for point B, I didn't mean to accuse you of splitting hairs. But I do think that you might not be used to their way of not using Christianese in their expression of these concepts to their significantly-non-Christian weekend audience.

Anyways, if you want to hear it from the horse's mouth, Tim Stevens (who is the behind-the-scenes leader at GCC) just made a blog post about this whole hullabaloo today: "Why I'm Glad Some at Granger Don't Believe in the Bible"

http://www.leadingsmart.com/leadingsmart/2008/08/why-im-glad-som.html

I think he overvalues evangelism to the undervalue of discipleship (again, feels very Finney-ish), but it's helpful to hear such candid reflection on these numbers in non-sermon form.

--clint

[Barbara]

:) The beauty of being able to agree to disagree. And I didn't suggest that you would necessarily find it difficult to muddle through the quote, but someone else did and spoke up about it, so I clarified it for her.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Christy]

Thanks, Barbara and Clint. Both of your explanations helped me sort it out. I think the problem is that when he talks about programming for the presence of Christ, it sounds a lot more muddled than simply saying, "We're going to extend the worship part of the service and sing a few extra songs." I prefer for people to simply cut to the chase and say what they mean. When I read something like "the experience of the risen Christ," it makes me think of contemplative meditation and not music.

[Barbara]

Yeah, when I hear "the palpable experience of the risen Christ" it makes me think of that opening of those floodgates at conversion and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that results from that. Either way, the real thing can't be programmed. I'm with you, Christy - I think people should simply say what they mean and mean what they say, and not embellish nor talk around stuff. That's actually quite biblical too, come to think of it. :)

[A Slave Of Christ]

I hate to bring a rebuke, but I must. First, I must also tell you that I love the site, and how you are exposing the evil of this fallen age, and the workers of the devil who "Masquerade themselves as servants of righteousness".

What is needed, coupled with the exposing of the works of the enemy and the flesh, is prayer. Allow your zeal for God and your hatred for the works of the devil be turned into good, and not a flesh driven anger for what you're seeing going on. So often we get caught up in what's going on around us and how terrible it is, that we stray away from God even in that. We focus more of our energy on what's going on than on what God wants to do about it. Satan charmed 1/3 of the angels OUT of heaven...Can He not blind a feeble ball of dirt?

Do you know how small of a problem all of this is for God? You and I look at this country with utter amazement at what is going on supposedly in the name of our Lord and Savior. But I suppose that God is still seated upon the throne, and that He is simply waiting for all of His children to come together in unity about the issue and ask for Him to change it.

In Matthew 4:1 the Word says, "And He was led BY THE SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil."

You see, The Spirit of God isn't afraid of the devil. He doesn't sit back and talk about things, He does things.

Now, what can you and I do? We can expose the darkness around us with our light, but we should also be careful so as not to get in such a huffy about things that we forget to pray to God to not only expose the darkness, but to disperse it.

If there's going to be anything that will change all of what is going on in this fallen age it is one of two things, a lot of prayer, or the fierce just wrath of God upon a nation that deceives only it's self. By a lot of prayer I don't mean praying every day, I don't even mean praying for hours a day. I mean a time when you get before God and you bring to Him this issue of all that is going on around you, and because of the immense love that He has displayed through Christ, that now constrains you, you are completely and utterly broken over the fact that most of American so called "Christians" are going to Hell. That's not talking about the secular Americans, but the religious ones.

Pray for two things. That God would change the hearts of men, and that God would spare this land if He can find any righteous in it just as He did with Lot.

My fear is that God will not find enough to withhold His judgment any longer.

If God doesn't judge America soon, He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.

[Logan]

It's nice to know that in a few more years (if ignorantly bliss, Bible-less Christians) keep making more churches like these popular one's, I won't be able to find a single church to go that believes in salvation by grace, the Bible, or even the only way to eternal life.

THANKS GRANGER! :)

Keep it up, maybe if you try harder you can get to 100% false converts! /sarcasm

[Joshua Walls]

Merry:

"The Bible is a very unique book, because it is highly possible for a person to read it over and over again and not understand a single thing."

If you're reading and not understanding, you're not looking to God, from which ALL understanding comes. Therefore, it's safe to say, you're focus is not on the things above.

In any case. We need to stop looking DOWN on people, Saved or Lost, as in God's eyes, we are all loved the same.

[Grace]

I absolutely agree with Jeff T and Merry and a few of the others on here. These kind of blogs are never helpful - only harmful to the call of The Great Commission. Its just Christians bashing Christians - why would ANYONE be attracted to that? What of Jesus does that show? I'm a Bible Studyin', church every Sunday, quiet time practicin', fully devoted, Holy Spirit led, follower of Christ but these kind of blogs and pointless criticisms have made even me lose my desire to be around many corporate Christians who think they have been given some special permission from God to criticize and judge how others worship Christ or how they lead others to Him. Those who call everyone else's way of worship bogus and demean the way they present the message by calling it "false" - even when they are teaching that Jesus is the only way. Its ridiculous and a complete waste of your energy. Go spend time in a jail, an orphanage, a shelter, out in the streets, in your neighborhood where people REALLY need to feel the love of Christ - not be told what all the other evangelists are doing wrong.

From I Corninthians 13:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.

Remember Grace? Remember you are saved by faith and not works? One of the comments suggested you couldn't be saved if you hadn't read the Bible... uh, yeah, you can. God is concerned about your heart, not about whether you can read or not. Certainly reading and studying the Bible are essential to help you grow in your walk with God but its not a prerequisite for Jesus to be your Savior.

I believe in being sensitive to the "Seeker" - in other words, the person who has not grown up in church and is uncomfortable being around Christians (hmmm...) but is SEEKING God and SEEKING the love of Jesus and NEEDING their sins to be forgiven. They may be in a church like Granger b/c they feel the love of Jesus from the "true converts" (how bold are we to judge someone's heart?) in those churches and we should pray that they will eventually make that decision to open the door of their hearts and let Jesus in. Then maybe they will even get a chance to study their Bible and be taught more about grace and the authority of the Bible. I don't see anything wrong or bad about a desire to reach out to those "seekers." In fact, the Great Commission tells me I am to do so and to do so in a way that they can understand. If Jesus is being taught as The Way and their sins need to be forgiven, why does it matter if they like to do it in a way that is entertaining to this generation (as long as its done with modesty and glory to God)?

Maybe, instead of expending the energy to bash other Christians/Pastors who are trying to bring others in to their flock, you should expend your energy in to the mission field around you that God has called you to. Have you asked Him lately what that is?

[A Slave Of Christ]

Grace, I leave you this message as well...

But first, let me point out to you what love truly is...It is all of what you have said, but love does not allow a person to be nice to someone they love when that person is bound and determined to jump off of a cliff into eternal destruction....Love doesn't care about the feelings of that person at that point. Love only has one thing in mind, STOP THEM FROM KILLING THEMSELF!

Also, that little thing that I keep hearing, "God loves the sinner and hates the sin...." Tell me, is that what Psalm 5:5 teaches?

"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: Thou HATEST all WORKERS of iniquity."
OR what about Psalm 7:11 "God judgeth the righteous and God is ANGRY with the wicked every day."

It doesn't say that God's hatred is manifested towards the sin...It says that God's hatred is manifested towards the sinner...The one who commits the act....

So explain your cliche to me, in a way that lines up with the bible....

Oh, and also, before I begin my whole "Judge Not" sermon, let me point out also, that you said in your comment, "How bold are we to judge someones heart...."

I will not explain this, I will give you scripture...

"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it?" Jer. 17:9
"You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings for bad fruit. A good tree CANNOT produce bad fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is cut down and is cast into the fire...Wherefore, by their fruits you shall know them." Matt. 7:16-20
"For from within, out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" Mark 7:21-23

I don't have to look into your heart to know what's inside, I can look at what comes out, and by that I can tell the condition of your heart.

I am sorry my friend but I must reprove you...

You have taken a verse completely out of context. Judge not. Do you know what you do by taking that verse and applying it to everybody who says, "This is wrong, or that is wrong..." You completely eliminate the ability to discern the difference between Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa, JUDGE NOT! LEST YE BE JUDGED! Or The Apostle Paul and Osama Bin Laden, JUDGE NOT! LEST YE BE JUDGED! Or even Jesus Christ and Satan.....Judge not...

You see, there is a great problem going around in our society today, and it is that we all want to hang on to this verse that says, "Judge not lest ye be judged" Instead of "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Why have we chosen that verse? Because the Spirit of Satan has told people to choose that verse, because if you choose that verse, you can justify any ungodly thing that you do by simply saying, "Judge Not" I mean, it's in the bible, you can't go against it without saying that you don't believe the bible right?

Wrong...

Check this out... It's important when interpreting scripture to look at the whole of scripture and see how your interpretation lines up before going around using it.

Turn with me if you will to 2 Corinthians 5.... Where this site got it's name from....

Begin in verse 6, "Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malic and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and TRUTH."

Now it gets interesting in the next couple of verses... verse 9
"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to associate with fornicators....Yet not altogether with the forincators of this world, OR WITH THE COVETOUS....OR THE EXTORTIONERS...Or WITH IDOLATERS....For then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one, no, do not even eat with them."

Now, here Paul tells us, HAVE NOTHING TO DO with those who are "Called a brother" or those who say they are Christians but are ungodly. That's what the word of God says... And you may say, "Well, the bible says judge not and Paul sound pretty judgmental right there!"
And that's because you still want to hold onto that verse, why I don't know, but you do....Anyway... Moving on to the last 2 verses.... IN God's Word, not Paul's word....

"For what do I have to do with judging them who are outside of the church? Do you not judge them that are within? But them that are without God judges. Therefore, PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON"

He says, "I have no business judging those who are outside of the body of Christ, those who do not believe.... But those who are within...OR claim to be....I have to judge and you better too....God will deal with those outside of the church in righteousness, but we have to make every effort to keep the children of the devil out of the house of God and we have to expose them for what they are....Or else they're creep in and destroy EVERYTHING....Why? Because God's too weak to work it all out? No...Because God told us from the beginning to PUT AWAY FROM YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON. Why? Because a little leaven leavens the whole lump... If God allows for a wicked teacher or preacher to infiltrate a church, it is God's judgment against that people for not obeying His command...."

I want you to know that I do bring this to you in love... You say, "But you're using satire!" Read the prophets, they did the same....(Thanks for that line Paul Washer!) No, but honestly, I simply am sick and tired of seeing people using the verse Judge Not, in an incorrect manner that allows for the devil to further his work. I'm not saying that you deliberately did it because you're a child of the devil and you're trying to bring us all down, I'm just saying that you have not found the right interpretation of a verse that you're putting into action. It's a dangerous thing. I pray God would reveal to you more of the truth of His word, and that He would give you wisdom beyond measure.

In closing let me say that this was not intended to tear you down, but rather to build you up, but before you can build something up, you must first tear down that which is incorrect.

In Christ...

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
2 Timothy 3:16-17

"Preach the word; be instant in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
2 Timothy 4:2-5

[Grace]

So much of what you have quoted is referring to a responsibility or mind of God or toward our own personal responsibility of discernment in our own lives.

I truly believe God tells us to preach and show love and point people to the truth and allow HIM (I squirm at how often you put yourself in God's position...) to sift out the evil and follow His guidance in our own personal walk. I believe you need to be very careful where you go in your pride. I only know of you what I read on your blog and if I had to discern your "fruits" from what I read on here and therefore make a decision about the condition of your heart, I would be judging you the way you have judged others and believe you are preaching false. I'm also going to take a good guess you are not a perfect human so therefore you probably also don't produce all the fruits of the Spirit perfectly all the time. Does that put you in the category you have put Granger? BUT, that is not my place b/c that is not my ability nor do I have the righteousness of Jesus to condemn someone else's fruits when my own fall so short.

I can/will discern for myself to negate your advice, stop reading your blog and I will not point others to it. That is a responsibility in my own walk with God and my responsibility in how to handle teachings that I believe are not what God desires. Instead I will expend my energy on how I can glorify and get closer to God in my own life, to those around me, and follow the Great Commission and the two greatest commandments that undeniably He has called us all to follow.

I will pray for you and your ministry. Regardless of disagreeing with you, I do believe your heart is in the right place. I just believe that you are choosing the wrong way to follow through on it. I will pray for Granger as well and encourage you to encourage others to discern things they see from other Christian sources with what they read in the Bible and pray for guidance from God on those things. In other words, rather than spend your time tearing down each and every ministry/pastor you feel is wrong (I'm sure you would never run out of material unfortunately), why don't you use this as an opportunity to TEACH others how to discern what is good and what is truth. Don't give your readers fish - teach them to fish :)

God bless you.

[A Slave Of Christ]

Love, Grace, and Mercy....

While they are great and wonderful gifts of God to tiny, sinful balls of dirt like you and I, these three things are not something that we have to be taught about...God teaches us those things, we don't need men to explain it to us...

Holiness, Justice, and Righteousness....Now there's three things that most of the "Christian" world today doesn't understand at all. I submit to you that if the Holiness of God was exalted, more people would understand the love of God, and it wouldn't be because people explain the love of God. Love is not found in a word, it is found in an action.

Rule number 1...God is love.... Rule number 2 God is holy....

What does love do? Love does not allow a person to be nice to another person that is bound and determined to jump off of a cliff into eternal destruction. Love does not look at that person and smile and say, "I wish you the best....God bless..." Love does not sit back and make the person feel good about their decision. Love is not found in a word, love is found in action.... Love does this, It goes to that person and does anything and everything possible to stop that person from jumping off of that cliff, even if it means that the person who is acting out in love gets ridiculed, put down, or even killed in the process...... Jesus displayed this through His death on a cross.....

Now keep in mind that God IS Holy...God IS Just...and God IS Righteous...

You see, Lets lay out who God is. Loving, Gracious, Merciful, True, Holy, Righteous, Faithful, Good, Just.

Those characteristics of His character can be lumped into three things. God is Holy, God Is Loving and God Is Just.

Now keep in mind that God is perfect in all of His attributes. He cannot contradict Himself in anyway....

Because God is Just, He CANNOT Be any more Loving than He is Holy, nor can He be any more Holy than He is loving.

Therefore we come to the conclusion, that Love, Grace, and Mercy are important, but, they are not the attributes of God that need to be taught in our day and age. Everybody thinks of God as...Good...Loving....Merciful....

But nobody hears the name of the Lord and is struck down in absolute terror because of His holiness and their vile wickedness. Nobody thinks, "If God Is Just, He cannot forgive me..." Most people don't even realize how much of the Justice of God was revealed through the Cross of Christ, because they do not get the fact that Christ died in our law place, and proved His father to be Just....

They just view Jesus as a, "end all to all my problems...." and a ticket to heaven.

Look...There's something you've got to realize Grace, I do not put myself in the position of God, but I do place myself as a child of God, who knows the Word of God, and I do stand here telling you all of this because I care more about the Glory of God than the happiness of man.

Humanism says, "The end of all things is the happiness of man..."

Think about that....The happiness of man...Heaven, blessings, love, grace, mercy, no hell, no suffering, no hardships of any kind... A man centered Christianity....A man centered bible...A man centered agenda for going out and helping others...A man centered reason for having a, "Purpose driven movement". The happiness of Man.

Where as Christianity says, "The end of all things is the Glory of God"

The Glory of God....I believe that is achieved by doing what Paul does in the first three chapters of the book of Romans, wherein he puts so much effort in trying to do one thing.... Condemn the whole world. Why? Romans 3:19, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD." There's a problem in "Christianity" today. We're more concerned about people than we are about God. Why do you think God reveals himself throughout the bible as Holy, Holy, Holy, ...Righteous....Just....Holy, Holy, Holy....Righteous....Just.... He speaks down at the wicked with absolute disdain...But then later on God reveals another aspect of Himself.... Despite His great Holiness, He shows love, and He does it all in a way that never contradicts any of His characteristics.

I submit to you that it is impossible for a man to understand the worth of Christ's sacrifice, or to appreciate the love of God without first seeing His Holiness, and their unholiness.
Our motivation for loving others should not be out of just a love for other humans, it should stem out from the first and greatest commandment, "Love the Lord thy God...." You're love for the Lord should be so great, that you realize that above all else, He is worthy to receive the reward of His suffering.
That's where the love for others comes from.

I've heard it said many a time that You should love the Lord even if at the end of all things He throws you into hell because He is worthy.

Humanism says the chief end of all things is the happiness of man.....

Where do you stand?

Hebrews 12:5-9

"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My Son despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: For whom the Lord loves he corrects, and scourges every son whom he receives. If ye endure correction, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father does not discipline? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then you are illegitimate, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them respect, shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?"

[A Slave Of Christ]

Oh, and also Grace....

Thought I'd drop this verse in here.

Proverbs 10:32 "The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable: but the mouth of the wicked speaketh perversity."

Proverbs 13:1 "A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke."

Do not mistake pride for zeal. I boast in nothing but in my Lord. If I were to boast in myself, then I would be prideful, but I do not speak of myself, for it would be complete vanity to do so. I do speak of my Father though, and His glory. For if I sought to glorify myself, my glory would be nothing, but I do not seek my own glory, but instead the glory of my Father.

Jesus said, "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that receives who I send, receives me; and he that receives me, receives him that sent me."

[Grace]

Maybe our difference comes from the types of people we have been around and witnessed to. I just know that the people I speak with respond more to Christ in my life when I come to them with gentleness and love and peace from the Holy Spirit that is beyond understanding than they do when I try to argue my faith to them or when I get in to a negative discussion about how bad other pastors/Christians are. What comes to mind to me right now is the Amish's reaction to the family of the man who murdered their children. I am obviously not on board with how they walk in their faith and I'm sure they have a lot of things in their denomination that are not completely Biblically in line but absolutely believe that the love and forgiveness they displayed in that horrible tragedy were incredibly powerful examples of the love of Christ.

I still disagree with your blog and how you go about trying to show your faith but maybe you reach an audience that needs to hear it in the way you present it. For me and the people God puts in my mission field, there are way too many that are turned off by even wanting to listen about the faith b/c of the divisions among Christians over a lot of "non-negotiables" of our faith - although it presents me with a great opportunity to explain that we are all imperfect and that is why we ALL need Christ's sacrifice...and why it is important for us to develop our relationship with God, study His Word and not depend on the words of men.

With the conclusion that you must be reaching a different audience than I do, I pray with God's guidance and direction, you are able to bring more in to His arms.

[A Slave Of Christ]

God works in mysterious ways.

Differences of gifts, ministries and operations, but the same Spirit, Lord, and God that works all in all. (1 Cor. 12:4-6)

Thank you for your prayers. I pray the same for you.

You're right, we're talking about two different situations, where as I myself, am called to wake up the church, you may be called to bring more into the church.

I apologize for the pointless arguments I posed. I wish for more people to grasp the concept though, that American Christianity is almost totally wrong. Where God is leading me is Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to all who believe, TO THE JEW FIRST AND ALSO THE GREEK"

By that I mean that God's leading me to take, "The jew first and also to greek" to mean that before we bring more into the church, we have to get the church right first, or else we just lead people into a trap. And you are absolutely right with the love thing. I don't want you to think I'm throwing God's love out of the picture. The Love of God is what constrains me to live for Him. The Love of God and grace is what saved me from the pit in Hell that I was busy digging away at. What I'm trying to get across though, is that we've got millions of people all over this country and across the world that believe themselves saved because one time they prayed a prayer.

So we have the church filled up with a bunch of unconverted people, who end up gaining a position of leadership and the "church" is nothing more than the blind leading the blind....
The word of God says they both will fall into a pit.

I did not intend to lay a stumbling block in your way by arguing. I did not even intend to argue. In fact, God has lead me to repentance for arguing with you. I'm sorry.

Keep doing what God has you doing. I'll keep on doing what He has me doing, and I'll just have to remember that we're both working towards the same thing.

Again, I say that God works in mysterious ways. Last night, spoke with a brother of mine, he was telling me all about how the Kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. The same thing you said in the end of your comment. It's not the wisdom of words, but the power of God that changes things. I don't know about you, but when things line up like that in conversations with people, I call it confirmation that God's on both sides.

Once more, I apologize. I love you too much to leave this comment without pointing out my flaws in our conversation. May God be with you. :)