Pop Goes the Church

Listen carefully to how they decide what they are going to preach about at Granger.

Then compare what you hear to what scripture says:

2Tim. 4:1   I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Titus 1:7 For an overseer,as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Comments

[Belle]

Oh, goodie!

Another self appointed expert to tell the rest of us how bad and irrelevant traditional church is. If only Spurgeon or Sunday had been able to read this book, I guess they could have accomplished so much more.

[lutherische]

I thought the comment about the "irrelevance" of the "old" church was rather telling. Apparently, the way God worked for two thousand years isn't working anymore. We've got to be "relevant." Newly "churched" people are carrying the "baggage" the rest of us have from growing up in the church.

Are these people seeking Christ or entertainment?

[LaVrai]

OK. I watched the video and listened carefully. I read the Holy Bible passages you point out...but I can't really say if this man is making an error, because the interview did not cover any of his beliefs and what he is actually teaching in this church.

I understand that we must be cautious that our 'pastors' are not placating us but actually convicting us. But I can't 'condemn' this ministry because they have music acts during the service. People who play rock guitars and drums love the LORD, too... Is it the tempo of the music and the appearance of those singing it or is it the content of the music (lyrics) and who it is glorifying that is a factor?

I know we must keep things traditional, but please tell me what is 'traditional? Not everyone is the same. It's quite likely that you couldn't approach a teenager in Brooklyn New York the same way you would a 50-year-old man living in Houston. As long as no one is not distorting the TRUTH or corrupting the WORD, why shouldn't different techniques be used to help introduce to Christ Jesus? I imagine evangelists and missionaries who travel all over the world to preach the Gospel have to adapt a bit to every culture to be successful in their aim.

It is one thing if this man is placating the people he's targeting and telling them stuff that massages the soul, but it is quite another if he's only trying to wrangle them in based on what they already know so that he can then introduce to them the TRUTH, which always pricks the soul.

Tell me, what did I miss here? As for how they decide how they choose what to preach... you're saying there is nothing in pop culture that's topical? How about the lascivious lifestyle prevalent in pop culture? That's a good starting point for the average teen. What about the worship of material possessions exemplified in shows all over television and in magazines?

This man sounds like he's trying to bring in the young people -- who are surrounded by this garbage practically every minute of every day. So what's wrong with saying, "Hey, you know that TV show 'Heroes'... well, you too, are destined to have a meaningful life..."

[Logan Paschke]

Here's the three legs of his services.

"Strategic Theme, Cultural Connection, and a Biblical Truth."

Who else thinks there are two un-necessary legs here? Didn't the cross of Christ only have one leg? Do we really need to try and prop Jesus up? No. No, we don't. If we have to add something to the message based on strategy or culture then we have a message that is not applicable everywhere and we have a false message.

The reason the church has lost its effectiveness is because we don't show people with the holiness of God and His Law before we tell them of the Savior. It's really that simple.

[Kirby L. Wallace]

http://www.uniuslibri.com/UniusLibriIndex.asp?action=soisaid&articleid=53

That's all I have to say.....

God help us.

[Kirby L. Wallace]

LaVrai:

Where - ANYWHERE - in this interview does this so called "pastor" admit that God is absolutely, ulimately, sovereign - doing all things to and for HIS OWN GLORY?

He NOWHERE gives God the credit and the Glory that is due Him for saving miserable, wretched creatures such as ourselves.

Instead, he gives us flashes of "glitzy marketing materials" and one-offs about the inadequacy of "traditional chutch."

I'm just sad, and almost to the point of giving up.

We have become so immersed in sin and "relevancy" that we cannot even imagine what the true gospel is anymore.

[Josh]

I don't think the argument is the musical style. or the drums, or the lights, or even the way he dresses (who really cares??). The argument is that WE (the redeemed) are going to the WORLD (the unregenerate) to find out what WE should be teaching. Also, numbers do not indicate success, truth, or faithfulness. Jeremiah was guaranteed by God that few would listen to him and repent, yet he was told to preach anyway. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is an offense, but today, so many are trying to remove the offense of the Gospel, to their great error!

[Chadm]

Did anyone notice how he had to clarify her comment "Now you've gone from 200 people to several thousand" and He said" yea 6000" Its all about the numbers not true conversions.

[3dgeek]

I think it's quite interesting that he corrects the news anchor by telling us that the number of people attending is 6000 and not a couple thousand. I guess 6000 people attending MUST mean that they are doing things the right way. Sheesh.... if that's the case, Islam is really on the right track, their "services" are packed.

[Skylar]

"the fusion may help the church"

Help the church do what? gain numbers instead of souls? Sometimes I like to ask, what are these people thinking?

[Ruth]

This video saddens me. The worship team doesn't appear any different than what we'd find in any secular venue today. And, what is it about books these days? Is it a requirement now that pastors should write a book? Is that what makes them a pastor? Pastors, how about we take care of the hearts of the sheep inside the church first!

Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

[AndyB]

This is basically the order of the day. This is the result when we feel that we need to "help" the Gospel along. The remark about having 6000 in attendance figures right in to the core of it as well. I hear pastors talking about church attendance statistics so much you'd think George Barna was the 14th Apostle. We hear all the time that "denominational" churches are on the decline, that they're "dying on the vine" because they're not opening up and changing the ways they do things. It's usually followed by the proclamation of "It's all about SOULS!" to which I cry "FOUL"! Getting "unchurched" people's names on an attendance or commitment card isn't edifying to the Body if Joe/Jane Seeker are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

When "evangelism" in the form of "decisions for Christ" become the litmus test of a church's faithfulness/success, the end product will always be an emasculated Gospel and a Life Coach Jesus. We so often neglect actually discipling and training-up one another in righteousness and real knowledge of the Word in favor of speaking some infomercial-like Gospel, and the result is a generation of aenemic "christians". Rather than proclaiming a complete Gospel, we focus on some of the potential aspects of the outworking of salvation in a person's life and make THAT the Gospel instead.

"Here, try Jesus and you won't be 'lonely'! You'll have a purpose for your life! You've been looking for love? Well, God IS Love! Try Him today for free and if you're unsatisfied, just return the unused portion and we'll give you DOUBLE your money back! You can even keep the bookstore certificate and 'I heart Jesus' travel mug as our gift to you!"

Sorry to go off on a rant, but as someone who's only been woken-up from this garbage in the past few months (and still in a church community that's steeped in it, though not as bad as Grainger... yet) this stuff hits really close to home for me. I used to think it weird when the Bible would speak about people crying and wailing, mourning in sackcloth and ashes. Looking at my church, my family, and my community, I kinda understand it now...

[Al]

Kirby hit it on the head: no mention of God's holiness. No mention of Jesus.

This interview could have just as easily been on another subject, and had equal "relevance."

What rock band or carnival shouts out the word "REPENT!" and causes the throngs to obey??

It ain't gonna happen.

[Pat]

Broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many are on it, BUT NARROW IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE, AND VERY FEW ARE FINDING IT! Nothing that these "apostate" churches do anymore in the "name of Jesus" surprises me!

[Logan Paschke]

When the testing fire of God comes on judgment day, I'd rather have several dozen bars of gold than six thousand twigs.

Give me a few dozen solid Christians as a result of God using me as a witness over six thousand false converts as a result of me using my talents and my methods.

[Paul Latour]

NOT ONE WORD in reference to: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, sovereignty, holiness, sin, judgment, righteousness, forgiveness, mercy, grace, the cross, atonement, salvation. Nothing! Nothing! Nothing!

And apparently, it's these "pastors" who are "trying to figure out" how to reverse the "ineffectivenss and irrevelance of church". Eurika!! (Actually, you wreaka!)

It seems the Lord is absolutely powerless without the aid and brilliance of "pastors" like Tim Stevens.

This is sickening! Pray and fight for TRUE REVIVAL !

[Clint]

STOP JUDGING PEOPLE!!!!

Ha, just kidding. Wow, I don't think Jesus was even given a courtesy mention but I know I heard "meeting the needs of the people" at least 467 times. I wonder if he's read the NT enough to figure out that Jesus is in every other sentence.

[Ken]

"We look for "spiritual" topics that are already taking place in the culture, on the TV shows, in the movies..."

I'm sure this sets him up for the hackneyed 'Survivor' series of banal sermons...oh, excuse me..I mean to say talks because sermon sounds so preachy and we don't like that.

I have no problem with the music style or the powerpoints or the crazy light show...doens't bother me in the least. That's a style issue.
But when you start looking outside of the bible to try and find a hook to preach about, you are dancing on a very sharp blade.

Gods word is eternal. He doesn't need your help to make Him more appealing. Pastor Stevens, get over yourself.

[Interesting Thoughts]

Nit pickers.
Being one does not mean doing things the same, sorry.

[Brenton balvin]

Guys, you all seem to be Bible experts here in the comments.

Where is Jesus parables did he ever use the words 'God's gory, or God's sovereignty'?

I seem to remember numbers of people mentioned in multiple Gospels referring to Jesus' miracle feedings. The exact mention of numbers seems pretty important to Luke.

I would venture to say that Tim and his team have prayed with more people to accept Christ as a substitutionary atonement for their sins than many of us ever will.

Why don't you checkout his doctrine, not his strategy, and then write comments like these. Sad that "Christians" want to rip other Christians when they should be finding men of like doctrine who can help reach different people through different styles.

[mike]

"remember, everytime you point at others there are 3 fingers pointed back at you..."

I am saddened by the ease at which you judge someone based on a quick interview that only scratched the surface of what this ministry is doing...

"6000 false converts?" You are now GOD?!? You've met these people? Searched their hearts? Examined their lives?

"Pastors, how about we take care of the hearts of those within the church first?" This is what's wrong with the church now...we don't want to live-out JESUS' great commission on a daily basis and we have replaced it with religion and non-scriptural rules and attendance. How about we tell the souls inside the church to read their bibles, begin feeding themselves through the study of the Word and actually applying God's truth to our lives?!? Then we can actually do what He has commanded us and win our Jerusalem to JESUS?

So many think music preference is sanctified...you think a certain style of dress is appropriate (even though it wasn't invented when the scriptures are written)...you think certain instruments in church are right and wrong (even though the ones you prefer were also NOT invented when the church was formed). It's not right or wrong, it's preferences people. Think!

I know that you'll rip me apart - my prayer is that some may actually think about what you believe - quit following men, follow JESUS!

[Ryan]

One thing is for sure... I know people that have gone to that church and their lives were changed by God! Pretty cool! I'm glad their engaging our culture and not bashing it! (or running from it)

[Sam]

Have you read the book?
Have you emailed Tim and asked him his stance on scripture, deity, salvation or eternity?
Have you contacted Granger Community Church and asked them the same questions?
In I Corinthians 9:19-24, Paul shares his testimony of how he reaches to those who are not yet a part of the kingdom. He never compromises biblical principles...he simple reaches out to those who are not saved.
As he says in 22b-23...
"I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you."

[Jonathan]

No wonder people think that we are freakin' idiots. The church is known better for what is against than it is far. The hands and feet of Christ have been amputated, and now all we are is a big mouth. Instead of celebrating what God is doing at another church, we have to be critical. Apparently, God's "truth" needs a bunch of bodyguards that attack anyone who doesn't agree with them. Bravo, believers. You really showed that Tim Stevens a thing or two. I'm sure that God is pleased. Your comments have saved Christianity as we know it. Congrats!

[Jeff Prosser]

How it must grieve God's heart when other Christians bash another church for casting a different net to a community of unbelievers. Give Tim a break, he didn't have time to go into theology or doctrine, and I don't think he needed to...dang it was a three minute interview!
There is a generation today who sees no relevance of the church today...the present way IS NOT REACHING THEM!! Come on people get the big picture...quit picking on each other, aren't we all on the same team?

[Bart]

Hmmm. I've read the Bible. I seem to recall a guy named Jesus using ALL KINDS OF ILLUSTRATIONS outside the context of the written Word to drive His spirtual points home.

[Mike Demastus]

What is the book, chapter, verse for maintaining this blog. You guys are promoting false doctrine by having this blog. The Bible says nothing about blogs and you willfully embrace them. Disgusting. How can you so blatantly sin by blogging? Or have you realized that your hermeneutic is the problem...that's what keeps you trapped in the anti-cycle.

[Mandy]

It's interesting that folks seem so quick to judge afer a short interview. Tim's church is absolutely reaching people, demonstrating the love of Christ and saving souls (myself included).

We're all after the same goal. Let's edify the church instead of trying to drag each other down.

[Paul Latour]

No Jeff, we are not on the same team. We are on opposite teams. The Bible calls it "spiritual warfare". Unfortunately, in this battle, we Christians must do battle with impostors claiming to be of the same ilk.

God calls us in Ephesians 6:11 to:

"Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes".

One of the most powerful weapons the devil utilizes in his schemes is deceivement via subtlety. And that is what people like Warren, McClean, Bell, Stevens, etc, do. And we TRUE Christians must be stand ready to defend the God's TRUTH on the frontlines of these spiritual battles. (Please spare me the "judge not" misquote!)

Paul says to the Galatians in Chapter 1:6-8 :

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pevert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an agnel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Stevens, and the like, is preaching "a different gospel". He is a wolf in sheep's clothing. And he brags about the 6000 congregants he is trying to drag to hell with him!

That is, of course, lest he repents. And I earnestly pray for that to happen.

[Brandon]

You are breaking God's heart by promoting infighting within the family of God. Don't waste your God giving time publishing hatred about fellow believers.

[Kyle]

I am starting to realize why some people want nothing to do with Christianity. Why would we bash somebody and a part of "the body" for trying to make an impact in their community. As for what I know about Jesus, usually when he taught he used the culture around him to make his point, whether it was about the farmer, or the prostitute, or the sick, or the "sinner". Jesus didn't just walk around quoting old testament scriptures. I am thankful for churches who are being the church and trying to make a difference instead of being so quick to judge what others are doing!

I hope nobody is reading this blog who is not a christian...we often don't live out the gospel with one another and for that I ask for God's forgiveness for the church as a whole.

[Evan Rummel]

Amen Jeff and Jonathan!! As Christians, we should be far more critical of how we are doing spiritually than others. For in the end, it is only up to God to decide who was right and who was wrong. And if someone isn't fed at one church but is fed at another, who are we to criticize them or the church?? They are getting to know Jesus right?? That alone should be the answer. If someone likes flashy and rock concerty church, AMEN! If someone likes traditional, more hymnal and liturgical, AMEN! It is not for us to criticize others. Lets keep the focus on God, not what one church is or is not doing.

[Steve]

Bible scholars, didn't Jesus tell us to take our issues with our brethren to THEM FIRST, then if that doesn't help get 2 or 3 people, then if that doesn't help take them to the elders of the church then if that doesn't work cast him out.

It seems like we've missed a few steps...Steps Jesus Himself lined up.

I don't know Tim nor do I go to his church. I read the pre-released version of the book. Read the book, talk to the man, attend one of his siminars - get a feel for what he is saying. He's all about God getting the glory. It was 4 minute interview with pointed questions specifically about his book. Did you want a dissertation about Calvinistic theology? C'mon folks.

"Bearing with one another in love" and do whatever is in power to keep the unity. This kind of bashing is NOT what was written to us as Christians as a method to dwell together.

[Josh]

What about Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 9: 19-23? Becoming all things to all people, so that by all means we may save some? We certainly cannot tailor the message of God, but we can tailor and adapt the methods we use to proclaim that message so we can continue to reach all people (just like Paul desired).

I'm not saying Tim Stevens and Granger are going about it in the best way possible, I'm sure they have made mistakes and will continue to do so (but who hasn't?). The important part is, they are trying to become all things to all people...so that by all means they may save some with God's message of Good News.

Jesus did not always make direct reference to God, sin, forgiveness, etc. when speaking to non believers. He used parables to explain those topics (mustard seeds, tax collectors, farmers, good samaritans, etc.), and in this day, I believe Granger and many others like it are trying to do the same. They are looking into the real world for modern day parables, stories that people can relate to, stories that will break down barriers for people and allow them to hear God's teaching for their lives.

God has ordained us, the priesthood of all believers to carry his message to the ends of the earth. No, he does not need our help, but he wants it and the WORLD needs it.

[Rob Hurt]

Wow, sure hope no non-Christians stumble upon this site. So much for being known by our love for one another! (John 13:34-35) You may disagree with this guy's methods, but there sure seem to be a lot of people judging his heart. Is that our business? If this guy is passionate about leading lost people to Jesus, does he have to do it exactly like you do?

Hey, I'm all for holding up the message and asking is it Biblical. But when it comes to method, Jesus' style wasn't the same as that of the teachers in the temple when he told parables.

Are you judging the method or the message? This guy claims the name of Christ, he IS sharing the Gospel whether it's how you would do it or now and he's been devoured by his own.

What has YOUR passion for the lost led you to do this week?

[Ross Middleton]

I've never been to Granger, I have read the book, though. Listen, as long as they preach Jesus, which they do (I've watched some of their services on line), there is freedom for how you communicate the gospel.

Do you know that many hymns were Christian words that the writers would put to popular melodies sang in bars where people got DRUNK. What is the difference of what they are doing now? If you think that is so wrong, you need to repent for half of the hymns you sing, read a history book and stop bashing other Christians.

[Sam]

Seems like many of you either haven't read the book, don't know Tim well or AT ALL or don't appreciate being challenged. Jesus was culturally relevant with his message (fig tree, well, crops) he was speaking into his audience's lives with practical analogies and stories. Why should we not follow his example, and speak to our audience in a language they can understand and grasp. Although I don't know Tim personally, from what he writes, and how they do church at Granger, the bottom line is getting people to meet Jesus. It seems a little concerning that a ministry that is thriving and creating disciples who love the LORD would come under this kind of scrutiny. Perhaps he offends, good for him. I have read about a guy who offended a ton of people, and he got killed for it, his name was Jesus.

[Nate]

Religion, unfortunately has set apart so many things that we can't even come together anymore and focus on the main things. I view it very much this way. . .if they are for us(preaching and teaching the name of Jesus and His resurrection, which Tim and Granger do, then why start these arguments about them)?

I am so horrified at the amount of websites out there that are 'christian' owned, but their main purpose and function is to debunk anyone who is succeeding at their ministry.

With the world rapidly deteriorating morally, don't you think it might be time to lay aside our petty arguments and quarrels and begin focusing on what God has called us to do.

(For those of you who have forgotten: Mark 15-16 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned...")

Not just a thought, but a call to action. Lets focus on the right things please. . .God is coming back for a pure and spotless bride, not one that talks out of both sides her mouth.

[Chris Rosebrough]

To All,

Today we have the pleasure of welcoming new people visiting the Museum of Idolatry from Tim Stevens' blog at http://www.leadingsmart.com/leadingsmart/2008/05/is-there-a-kern.html

Tim asks the question "Is There a Kernel of Truth?" regarding my critique of his book and methods.

I'm going to post the comment I left at Tim's blog here so that people can understand the Biblical issues that are in play regarding Tim's ideas and methods. See if you can see the 'kernel of truth' after reading what I had to say.

---Here is the comment I left at Tim Stevens' blog.---

The question posed in your interview was about "how to make the church relevant" as if it is a problem that the church isn't relevant.

The Bible is clear that the message that we've been given to preach is not relevant to anyone who is not already a believer.

1Cor. 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

In other words, you will never take a survey of 'unchurched' people and have them say, "what we really want to hear more of is that Gospel message of Jesus Christ crucified for our sins." Yet, that is precisely what we are called to preach.

1 Cor 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom...

The problem with your approach and methods is that it relies on worldly wisdom and worldly assumptions and worldly methods instead of the power and word of God.

In your interview you said, "We look for spiritual topics that are already taking place in the culture on t.v. shows, in the movies, in the songs and really just try to explore those topics."

Sorry, but that is NOT what Christian pastors are called to do. They are called to preach and teach God's word.

In fact, by letting the culture decide what topics you preach on you are guilty of doing exactly what 2 Tim 4:3-4 warned us about. It says, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."

I've watched and listened to many many many Granger sermons and I've watched those sermons be purchased and used by hundreds of other churches across the country. They are MAN focused not cross focused. They are self-help, pop-psychology pep talks that do not accurately teach God's word in context. This again contradicts the scriptures.

2 Cor. 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

Even worse, this marraige of the world with the church does not honor God and contradicts the clear warnings of scripture.

Galatians 6:14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

James 4:4 You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

2Cor. 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” 18 “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”

Rather than come out from the world and be separate from it, Granger has brought the world into the church.

The church doesn't need Madonna it needs the foolishness of 'Christ Crucified for our Sins'.

The church doesn't need Van Halen it needs the irrelevance of 'Christ Crucified for our Sins'.

The church doesn't need Grease, SNL, the latest movies or the latest gameshows it needs the scandalous and repulsively weak message of 'Christ Crucified for our Sins' and pastors who will faithfully preach and teach God's word in context Sunday after Sunday.

God promises that the message of 'Christ Crucified for our Sins' is what he uses to lead people to repentance and faith (Rom 10:17). These worldly methods that rely on worldly wisdom have no power to bring people to repentance and faith and actually contradict what God has called HIS holy church to do.

Repent.

[AndyB]

To go from 15-ish to nearly 40 comments in one day, I figured there had to be a lot of folks from either GCC or something closely related to Tim that were made aware of the exhibit. I'm glad the curator reposted the comment from Tim's blog here, because it shows how the majority of the commenters unfortunately completely failed to comprehend the nature and meaning of not only the curator's comment, but also apparently the nature and meaning of Jesus's "ministry", church history, and even the Word of God.

Like I said in my earlier comment, the litmus test of "success" has become the number of folks that show up and have some kind of "experience". Commenters are saying they know people whose "lives have been changed" and I truly hope they have been genuinely changed. I've gone to a church that seems like a mini version of GCC for several years now, and I've said the same thing myself in the past. About seven months ago however, I began to understand just how dead wrong I was though (emphasis on the "dead" part).

I thought that because attendance numbers were up, and I was feeling good after the service, and I was throwing money in the offering plate and to panhandlers on the street that I thought I was really somethin! I felt like my life had been made 110% better! But God in His mercy, through sound teaching of the Word from other sources began to show me just how shallow, fickle, and spiritually bankrupt I was. I knew NOTHING of the Word... yeah, I knew some "Christianese" and would "read" the Word (a lot like I'd read a fortune cookie) but I knew nothing about exegesis, hermeneutics, sound doctrine... heh.. "doctrine" was and still IS a dirty word in my current church.

I had the same ZEAL as every commenter that rushed over here to rip this blog a new one in the comments. I had that same ZEAL, and yet I had NO TRUTH! I'd talk about "Jesus" but it wasn't the hard-truth, confronting-my-sin, forsake-my-flesh Jesus from scripture... it was the postmodern, Purpose-driven, don't-judge, entertain-me, be-my-buddy-not-my-King Jesus.

That whole "start feeding yourself on the Word" line that most pastors give you is a crock. It's the last thing they really WANT you to do, because anyone who approches the scriptures honestly and doesn't play interpretive gymnastics will want to fall to their knees and weep for the state of "the church" today after looking at spectacles like this from GCC and worse from others.

One last aside though - in response to Ross Middleton's comment: you may want to check which history book you're reading. I assume you're referring to the "legend" that the Wesleys' used drinking songs to make hymns catch-on... your facts are wrong. They didn't use drinking songs, they used "bar tunes" - bar, meaning a musical measure/melody, not a drinking establishment. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_35_18/ai_92352726

[J Aquila]

You guys crack me up. Seriously!

You make a big deal out of one of my pastors, from my home church, because he corrected a news anchor about our weekly attendance numbers?

You want to know what that number really means? I'll give the real skinny on who those 6000 people REALLY are. Being one of them and all, I should have a pretty firm grip on this. Here's the truth ...

We're all sinners. Even the pastors. They sin as well. We're all flawed human beings who screw up daily, and do so with gusto, on some occasions. Each week however, we keep coming back to GCC and desire to learn about Jesus, in efforts to become more like him. That's Christianity. To become more like Christ.

We're not perfect. Our services aren't perfect. We don't claim to be. What do do claim to be are a community of believers who are dedicated to taking our next steps towards becoming more like Christ, and doing it together. We encourage each other and come together to serve one another. We believe this honors God. We do our best to love one another and go out into the community and feed the hungry. We fight social injustice both locally and overseas. But most importantly - We meet people where they are.

That entire last paragraph I wrote, in it's entirety, is exactly what Tim Steven's book is all about. All that we do is to help people come closer to knowing who our God is. Period. We don't bait and switch. We don't try to loosely tie everything in pop culture back to God - BUT - we do point out where God speaks to us within pop culture, and relay our perspective to those seeking God. I've been going to GCC for over 20 years now and not once have I started to worship Bono, Neo, Spider-Man, or John Lennon - NOT ANY of the other pop culture references we've used as a relevant subject or theme for our weekly sermons. I follow Christ.

I can't speak for the other 5,999 other attendees of GCC. But what I do know is that our church would not have grown to the size we are now if we weren't making an impact for Christ, both within people's lives and within our community. We're still growing - both physically and spiritually, together. We're taking steps towards Christ, and learning to be more like him, each and every day.

Numbers don't matter to us. But people matter to us. And by us , I mean we as a church collectively. That's why we do things the way that we do. That's what Tim's book is about. All Pastor Steven's wants today's Church to consider is how we are reaching people, in efforts to collectively move towards becoming more like Christ.

JUST A LITTLE INSIDE INFO for all of those who JUST DON'T GET IT.

[Jason]

Have you ever seen or heard another pastor you trust and respect (someone making great strides for the Kingdom of God) interviewed by secular media - did they really bring out all the truth as you know it? Do they always get the story 100% accurate? Have they ever misspelled something you know should be spelled differently? Do you realize how much is edited from the interview as the Church is simply something that doesn't get much news coverage?

Would you want your church to be featured in just a short amount of time and be judged by that one interview? I'm afraid my friends that many would be having a conversation about you and your philosophies in the same manner.

Matthew 28 simply states: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I need to clarify I do not attend Granger Community Church but I do reside in Granger, IN and I am quite aware of Granger Community Church and the impact that has been made on this community in the last 20 years and countless individuals lives that have been away from God and are serving him wholeheartedly.

Granger simply takes that verse quite literally - Go into all the world (which they begin right here in this community). Did you hear about how they feed every family in the county and beyond that lives below poverty level? Did you hear about the lives of inner-city youth that are being turned around to serve God? Did you hear about the single mom struggling to survive trying to just make it who by attending a service turned her life over to God and all has changed? Did you hear about the executive who was cheating on his wife who met a friend who invited him to this very same church - who now has restored his relationship with his wife and now has a new relationship with Christ? Did you hear how they walked side by side with his wife during that restoration?

Granger continues in that verse by teaching all nations by simply using a parable that gets their attention . . . something like "Heroes" and teaches what it means to make a difference in someone else's life. Just because how they title a topic doesn't make them teaching something false? Don't you use something that tries to get people's attention? It is always a joy to find out what truth of scripture they are teaching behind the creative title that grabs people's attention. Did the news segment tell you the series called "the 10 commandments" was taught for 10 weeks - during a mid-week service to a packed house none the less? Did you ask the individual that came out of that series that struggle with this or that commandment who now has knowledge and revelation through just teaching from scripture on how to conquer that sin?

Did you ever have a professor while in school use a unique illustration to help explain the principle/or teaching so that you could understand it better?

My friends are we not like the Pharisees sitting around in group discussion about what is clean and what is unclean? Shouldn't we be about winning souls and teaching them to observe the things that Christ commanded rather than debating someone who is actually doing just that?

I would pray that you would open the door to anyone at Granger Community Church with your questions - I know I've asked and they've gladly opened the door to me. I encourage you to ask Tim Stevens (who is not even the senior pastor) or any of their pastoral staff. One of the Godliest group of leaders to be found.

My prayers and blessings are with you all.

[Paul Latour]

J Aquila said:"All Pastor Steven's wants today's Church to consider is how we are reaching people, in efforts to collectively move towards becoming more like Christ."

That's fine but nobody can become Christ-like until they know they are sinners in need of a Savior, turn away from sin, put their faith in Christ for their salvation and learn to love the things that God loves and HATE the things God hates, including all the worldly things from the so-called "entertainment world" your church uses to draw the bigger crowds.

Chris Rosebrough says it all!

[dw]

has anyone ever noticed that Jesus, when speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well, was tying spiritual truth to her cultural-religious understanding (i.e. Samaritan emphasis on water, springs, and messiah in their scripture)? i also recall Paul grieving over the city of Athens, but then quoting their philosophers and poets in order to make entrance for spiritual truth(Acts 17). let's not be too quick to judge brother Stevens when Jesus and Paul used similar technique as entrance to tell people they needed Jesus. perhaps, we should also have video footage of the teaching at Granger or of Tim Stevens to see if it's unBiblical or unChristian. i also wonder if anyone has confronted Stevens on this issue, which would be in-line with what Jesus instructs us to do, btw.

[Chris Rosebrough]

DW,

do you really think that quoting a greek poet in order to make the case that God exists and is 'not far from us' is qualitiativly the same thing as performing a song by Madonna or Van Halen or turning your church into the set of Deal or No Deal?

I don't think so!

Notice that when Paul quoted the greek poets he WAS NOT IN CHURCH, he was OUT in the world proclaiming and defending Christ and the one true faith.

Also, notice that Paul didn't turn the church into a greek seeker sensitive outreach by having a series on the poems of Cicero or a series on the Greek Pantheon and how Greek Gods reflect different aspects of Jesus' character.

Church has been and will always be a gathering of Christian believers who come together to worship, be fed God's word and receive the Lord's supper.

[Jim W]

Thanks for your Godly, biblical stand on this (and all the other issues you post on), Chris. I noticed that someone commented that why should we expect Stevens to get in a solid, biblical, gospel message in only 3 minutes (paraphrased). I've noticed that John MacArthur and John Piper always manage to get in some gospel, no matter how long they are given. Why couldn't Tim Stevens?

[Rick Phillips]

I have been to Granger Community Church. The Holy Spirit is very present there in everything thay do. Just because it's different from how some choose to do it doesn't make it wrong the messages are full of Biblical truth and the Gospel. If it weren't for churches like Granger and pastors like Tim Stevens I would have never been led to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The leadership at Granger also makes it perfectly clear that it is not about the numbers it is about the souls saved. Please don't judge just because you don't understand. The church is not a club or haven for "christains". It is supposed to be a welcoming place for others to explore the claims of Christ no matter where they are or where they come from.

[Christy]

J. Acquila posted above: "We're all sinners. Even the pastors. They sin as well. We're all flawed human beings who screw up daily, and do so with gusto, on some occasions. Each week however, we keep coming back to GCC and desire to learn about Jesus, in efforts to become more like him. That's Christianity. To become more like Christ."

Our own efforts can't make us more Christ-like. That seems to be the problem with churches who seek to be more "relevant" to culture. They seem to believe that if they just "do church" in a way that the unbeliever can accept, if they can just do and say the right things to get people into the doors, then they're doing all they need to do to be Christ-like. We become more Christ-like as we surrender to His lordship.

Also: "But what I do know is that our church would not have grown to the size we are now if we weren't making an impact for Christ, both within people's lives and within our community."

CNN claims that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Using that logic, Islam must be doing something right. :) Don't misunderstand me. I don't think GCC is so totally false as Islam. Just be wary about the numbers being an indicator of spiritual growth.

[M.G.]

Christy,

While it is true that becoming more like Christ is not something that we accomplish on our own, I fail to see the connection between sanctification, as a theological topic, and seeker sensitive ministries, as a methodology for evangelism.

Does anyone *really* believe that a seeker sensitive church format is truly *all* that is necessary for a holy and godly life? Do you have any evidence for your claim? Has anyone ever said "forget about the fruit of the spirit, we've got a cool service and that's good enough for us."

Your argument strikes me as a bit of a strawman.

[Doug Smith]

I don't often interject into blog posts. I enjoy reading several bloggers, but rarely do I feel the need to comment. To be transparent I do subscribe to Tim's blog and I was one of the reviewers of his book, but I have not yet read the final copy. This is the first time I've read "A Little Leaven". I am a sinner who is saved by God's grace and I share a deep concern that the Gospel is relevant to today (and any day) but that our pluralistic, post-moderinistic, consumeristic society is trying desperately to make it irrelevant and a growing number in our culture do not have ears to hear the Truth. Perhaps this can be debated, but it is a burden which is on my heart and that burden is real.

I just read an interesting book entitled Humble Apologetics by John Stackhouse. In it the author discusses conversion and how it involves the whole person as he or she transits from one sort of existence before knowing Christ to walking consistently in the Spirit in every respect. The word "every" in that sentence should be underlined because it represents every single aspect of worldly views vs. God views. And dare I say that only God knows the full totality of what is considered to be "every respect".

Is Tim's book perfect? Probably Not. Is "A Little Leaven" pefect? Probably not. Is any church in America perfect. Nope. Why, because we are all fallen people and we will make mistakes and we will answer to them on The Day. I trust in God's sovereignty that he, and he alone, will determine where those sinful mistakes have been made. I also trust as the Scriptures reveal, that those sins will be forgiven through the blood of the Christ. But can Granger church or Lake Forest Church (the church I serve in) or any other God fearing, Gospel preaching church help people to walk consistently with the Spirit in every respect. I believe it can. Can we use the messages of our culture to teach about God's love, sovereignty and wrath. I believe we can. Not because we are of the world, but because we live in it and are familiar with it and our neighbors are looking - at least latently - for God in that culture.

I appeal to you has a brother in Christ to have an open debate that is full of the grace and mercy that Jesus offered to so many. Win your brother over with love, not with judgmental words or hateful criticisms. We all have much to learn if we discuss these issues well. We also have much to lose if we present ourselves poorly to the world in which we live.