Pete the Porno Puppet?

XXXChurch's Pete the Porno Puppet has teamed up with unrepentant porn king Ron Jeremy to give church kids Christian reasons to stay away from porn. What are the "reasons" this video gives kids to avoid pornography?

Well the video gives two reasons.

1. Because porn king Ron Jeremy made pornography for consenting adults, not children.

2. For Pete's sake.

No scriptures were given. There was no mention of God's law and sin. There was no mention of Jesus.

After watching this video ask yourself, "Do you want the youths at your church learning about pornography from Pete the Porno Puppet and Ron Jeremy, a man that defends and still produces pornography"?

2Cor. 6:14-16   Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols?

Comments

[Mrs. Jake]

Is this satire? Or did XXXChurch really use Ron Jeremy to say that pornography was for adults? Is it amazing that I don't know if this is satire or is really happening in the "church?" I've always said that if you open the door a crack for Satan, he'll break the door down and take over your house. 'Nuff said.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

"Pornography is for consenting adults" rather tends to undercut the stated mission of XXX Church, wouldn't you think?

I can think of a few Scriptures for the subject.

[James]

Based upon this video and Ron Jeremy's reasoning as presented by XXXChurch, as a consenting adult should be able to watch poooooornaaaaaagraaapy.

This video condones adult consumption of pornagraphy as much as it "condemns" children viewing it.

I guess that's what happens when you team up with the world and unrepentant sinners. You end up getting very mixed messages.

[Shannon]

Are you TRYING to kill me???

I'm still having a fit over Wally, and now THIS?

I can't do better than the verse the Curator listed -

2 Corinthians 6:14-16 (Amplified Bible)

14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers [do not make mismated alliances with them or come under a different yoke with them, inconsistent with your faith]. For what partnership have right living and right standing with God with iniquity and lawlessness? Or how can light have fellowship with darkness?

15 What harmony can there be between Christ and Belial [the devil]? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

16 What agreement [can there be between] a temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in and with and among them and will walk in and with and among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

To make light of the problem of pornography is just ... antiChrist.

To implement the likes of Ron Jeremy (has he been saved or something???) lends even more cause to question the actual motives of this "christian" ... what - organization?, "church"?

This is idiocy.

I can't stand it.

What's next? SHOWING porn films in church - to "WARN" people of what it is?

This is outrageous, and ...
what can even be done about it?

These people - these xxxchurch people - they do NOT care about pornography, or those entrapped in it.

They can't.

There's nothing funny about it.

If there were, Jesus would have been joking around about the 10 Commandments, and all sin. Shoot, there wouldn't have BEEN any commandments, just some light-hearted suggestions... like the speed limit seems to be.

This is just awful.

[Nancy Little]

That puppet's t-shirt has that ying-yang symbol on it. That's not Christian. come to think of it, there ain't nothin' Christian about this video or what these boyz are doin'

[Mrs. Jake]

If the church REALLY wants to use outside "ministries" to combat pornography, may I suggest Todd Friel's excellent CD, "Slaying The Dragon - Putting Pornography to Death Once and For All". Of course, Todd is biblical and doesn't compromise with the world, so he would definitely not be considered "relevant."

[SouthernBelle]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to ever find out that the employees and "leaders" of this "ministry" often view porn themselves. Like James just said, the video CONDONES it for adults as much as it condemns it for kids..... and I am not even quite sure they are trying to condemn it for kids as much as they seem to be trying to peak the kids' interest in it.

What a great cover.... not to mention a great money maker.... to disguise themselves as a church ministry.

Mama must be proud.

[Puddleglumm]

It's kind of like the old "Limbo" dance: How LOW can you go!
This is scraping the bottom of the barrell!

[Shannon]

These xxxchurch people are beyond the bottom of the barrel.

They shot a hole in the bottom of the barrel, got a shovel, dug six feed down into the earth, found a rotting corpse, dug into that, sat down, tied a napkin on, and started feasting on the maggots that are gnawing on the dead body.

These people suck, and I am having a very difficult time NOT hating them and hoping they go to hell.

Hmmm... there IS a verse that says something about leading "little ones" astray...

[Deke]

Look - I think this video is highly sketchy (even if it's complete sarcasm). I don't get what the purpose is at all. I don't know why an anti-porn group would promote (even jokingly) that porn is okay for adults, just not kids. So that's where I'm at on the video.

But, I've got to challenge SouthernBelle's claim that the leaders of this group are likely to "often view porn themselves." I think that's a mean-spirited and unfounded comment. I also think it's unfair to paint them as porn-promoters disguised as a Christian ministry. Take a look at their website (xxxchurch.com) and read through their mission, purpose, and what they provide - it's clear to me that they are, in their minds, legitimately trying to break people free from the bondage of porn.

Now, before you rip me apart, I'm not saying they're doing it the right way - I think they're way off with this video and Wally. And I think, as you'll see on their website, that they tend to push the envelope too far. I'm saying that it's good to hold Christians accountable for falling into the trap of acting like the rest of the world - I just don't think we need make separate, wild accusations about them and how they may or may not sin along the way.

Peace.

[Els]

*and I am not even quite sure they are trying to condemn it for kids as much as they seem to be trying to peak the kids' interest in it.*

I was thinking that, too, SouthernBelle. How many teens are you going to find watching an "educational" children's video with puppets? This isn't going to teach kids who are already in puberty and struggling with lust- it just opens the eyes to pre-pubescent children to the fact that this stuff exists.
Grrr.

[Steve aka Xtian]

Yea its sad to see a "church" who's mission is to reach out to the lost in the porn world, but it seems they have taken on some of the idols (thinking) of the world they are trying to reach.

God says to be a stranger in a strange land & be holy as He is holy.

These folks are missing the mark & condoning porn (for adults). Gee didnt the bible say something about rejecting the immoral brethren?

Ummm...

Keep seeking God, listening & obeying Him.

Love,

steve

[merry]

Their methods do seem to be outrageous, maybe even unscriptural. But let's not start spreading false rumors and speculation about this group. From what I understand, xxxchurch honestly wants to help people overcome porn, and the founders/leaders may very well have struggled with porn in the past. That doesn't mean they still do. Unless you personally know the people in charge, or have firsthand knowledge of goings on in the group, let's not speculate about what they do in their spare time, shall we?

They seem to be trying out some new methods, and I think they need a lot of experience to see what works and what doesn't work(some methods may be a bit more obvious than others!) I have known of people have been helped out a lot by this church, and so I think we need to pray that God will lead them to Godly and effective methods.

[Shma]

God can use anything including a donkey but he FORBIDS this type of thing. Remember the verse about no corrupt thing coming out of your mouth - no coarse jesting. Also what did they have to do to have some porn star (& why would he do it) in their video. This is wrong on so many levels. You don't use porn to free people from porn.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Shannon]

DO YOU PEOPLE HEAR YOURSELVES ? ? ? ?

DO YOU THINK JESUS IS SAYING "OH, THEY MEAN WELL" ? ? ?

isn't there a saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions?

NOTHING ABOUT THIS IS OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!

G O D DOESN'T THINK ANYTHING ABOUT THIS IS OKAY.

WHAT THE DEVIL IS WRONG WITH YOU? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

IF THEY CARED ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE WITH PORNOGRAPHY ADDICTIONS, THEY WOULD NOT USE PORNOGRAPHY TO REACH THEM, OR UNREFORMED, UNSAVED PORN STARS IN THEIR ... "EFFORTS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope that the lackadaisical, they-mean-well-but-are-going-about-it-all-wrong attitude is not a good representation of how the majority of Christians are thinking these days... but I fear it is.

This is simply unbelievable.

You should be outraged that the name of your God is being attached to something that He - CLEARLY - would not condone.

Maybe it's just me.

Maybe it's PMS.

Maybe I just take the whole being Christian thing a little too seriously.

Maybe I need to lighten up?

Maybe we're a little further down the "Last Days" road than I even realized, and the great delusion is setting in.

Yeah.

That sounds about right.

You guys should check out Rob Bell and Nooma. You'll love them.

W A K E U P.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.......

[Paul]

Their methods don't "seem" to be outrageous, they ARE outrageous. "Maybe unscriptural"? Count on it! "They need a lot of experience to see what works"? What works? How about the Bible?! Prayerfully used and applied, God promises His ways will always work. We just need to submit, obey and trust! Simplistic, maybe. But that's God's way since man's will always fail...miserably.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." ( 2 Tim 3:16 )

[merry]

Shannon, honey, it might be time to switch to decaf, lol! ;)

No, you make some good points and I agree.

I think the point some of us were trying to make was that these people are our brothers and sisters in Christ and we need to pray for them.

Instead of leaving gossipy and slanderous comments about them on this blog (speculating about how the leaders probably view porn themselves-- come on, is that a very Christian thing to say?), if you are truly concerned, you can contact xxxchurch and share your concerns with them. And most of all, pray for them.

A lot of people struggle with porn (whether they want to or not), and all too many times I see Christians, instead of helping people with their struggles, criticizing them for their sin. XXXchurch is one of the only ministries I see trying to help, and we need to pray that God will give them wisdom.

[Sam]

This can't be real. This has GOT to be a joke. Someone is pulling our leg.

[SouthernBelle]

'that these people are our brothers and sisters in Christ'

These are not MY brothers and sisters in Christ. The God I worship is a HOLY God who does not approve of porn for anyone, adult or not. This video sends a false message, is nonoffensive to the unbeliever, and does NOTHING to convince us that that there is anything wrong with porn. This is filth. Plain and simple.

[SouthernBelle]

'it's clear to me that they are, in their minds, legitimately trying to break people free from the bondage of porn'

I don't care about what they think they are doing "in their minds". Even Joel Osteen begins his heresies with what's in his mind instead of what's in the Bible. Let's just stick to the legitimacy of scripture and what IT says. The only way to break the bondage of porn, as with any sin, would be to repent and turn your heart over to the Lord. Not silly videos that tell children (who are unlikely to be looking up XXXchurch in the first place) that porn is fo adults. Says WHO?? Jesus? Would He say porn is for adults?

Please. These are not Christians we are dealing with here.... so I don't know why I even let their silliness rile me up in the first place. Like I said, I don't care about what they THINK they are doing.

[Shannon]

Merry, I don't drink coffee, and, as per Jesus, these people are not Christians.

But what does Jesus know about Christianity anymore?

I have said absolutely nothing "gossipy", and slanderous is an absurd term to use, considering their behaviour and lack of shame.

There are several -actual- ministries who help people struggling with pornography. Some have been listed in this comment section.

Pornography is not a joke.
I know from personal experience, which is one reason I am so outraged over xxxchurch and what they are calling a "ministry".

They are hurting more people than they are helping with their antics.

Merry, you need to seriously question the Jesus you know.

Jesus is not smiling and shaking his head at this garbage, thinking these people are well-meaning, but going about it the wrong way. If He thought that, and they were saved, He'd TELL them so, and they'd change.

God does not smile at sin.

Any of it.

He hates it, and His wrath "abides upon" us when we are sinning.

He didn't let Jesus get murdered as our sacrifice so He could think we're "cute" or "misguided" or "well meaning" like kids stealing cookies from the kitchen when we are doing things that go directly against Him and His Word.

The all accepting, all forgiving attitude presented here is frightening.

There should be anger.

There should be outrage.

Not laughter, and joking about my anger coming from caffeine.

I intake no caffeine.

I am outraged that the name of my God is being attached to a 30 foot, goofy smiling penis, a porn star, and a joke of a "ministry".

If I were muslim, and this was about muhammed, there would be muslims crying out for the blood of the offenders in the street.

It is pathetic that a satanic religion incites more loyalty than Christianity.

Our God died for us.

We sit around and make excused for people who make a laughingstock of His name.

There is something critically wrong with that.

Sam, I thought so too.
I hoped so.
It's real.
Feels like you're stuck in a nightmare, don't it?

[Trent Kastman]

I'd like to know if men slobber, drool, or display their tongues when looking at pornography. Do you think XXXChurch or Ron Jeremy could answer that?

[Lane Chaplin]

This literally makes me nauseous. Should we really call these places "churches" that advocate things that are absolutely contradictory to Scripture?

Paul said, "Flee Fornication... It's sin against the body." (1Cor 6:18)

Ron Jeremy says, "It's ok as long as it's two consenting adults."

It's Ron Jeremy vs. God, and it seems this "church" has decided to side with an enemy of God.

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad."

- Jesus Christ
(Mat 12:30)

[merry]

Such loving, Christian attitudes around here.

SouthernBelle, these people ARE your brothers and sisters in Christ if they have, in fact, accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. All people, even Christians, sin and go astray. To say that they aren't your brothers and sisters in Christ is an extremely arrogant attitude. Even if they aren't Christians, we need to lift all of them up in prayer, which I have seen no one here offer to do.

[merry]

Shannon,

The coffee thing was a joke. Sorry if you were offended. It sounds like you or a loved one struggled with pornography. I'm sorry to hear that. Porn is a serious thing, and that's why we need to pray for this ministry and the people involved. The Jesus I know commanded us to love God and love people. He ate with sinners. If He had come to earth today, I think He would have included everyone in charge of this ministry. He loves everyone. He was, in fact, accepting of all people and forgiving of all sin. I am making excuses for no one. These people need to change their methods. That's why we need to pray for them! Are you willing to do that?

That's all I know what to say right now. I'm tired and attitudes on here have blown me over. I might expound on this and make myself more clear later.

Love in Christ and God Bless,
Merry

[Deke]

merry - thanks for inserting some much needed balance to this conversation.

I agree with almost everything that has been said on all sides of this discussion: this video is in poor taste, it's not Biblically-based, it promotes an improper view of the sex/porn industry, it gives Ron Jeremy a platform, it makes light of a serious sin problem, etc. On top of that, the organization that created it (xxxchurch) clearly is unequally yoking themselves with the world and has a warped sense of what their "mission" is. They need to repent and either change their ways/methods, or disband.

BUT...It is not necessary to make wild accusations about these people (they probably view porn, they work for the porn industry, they are actively trying to entice children to view porn). It's also not our place to judge their salvation, because we're not God. Can we criticize their judgment? YES. Can we criticize their methods? YES. But are we able to judge their hearts based on a video and an inflatable phallus? No, we can't.

People are broken. They are not perfect. Does that mean we should accept sin? No...and we're not doing that here. We've clearly condemned the xxxchurch folks and some of their methods. I even agree that they need to be held to a higher standard because they've put themselves in a position of "leadership" and a lot of Christians are taking their cues on addressing sexual sin from them. But if perfection is the standard in this life to be a Christian, then we are ALL way short of the mark.

[Tim]

Merry,

Flower-powered Christianity willfully ignores the fact that Jesus demonstrated wrath to many people. Contrary to popular fantasy, Jesus did not "accept all people and forgive all sin." He was remarkably wrathful towards the religious elites. Why? Well, let me spell it out: They refused to repent of their wickedness.

The entertainment evangelicals, along with the gay-pride episcopals and others too numerous to name, require nothing besides the wrath of God's Law because they refuse to repent of their wickedness. They are actually deluded enough to believe that their sins are done in the service of God.

Fortunately, it does not matter whether they (by some miracle) yet retain justifying faith. We judge by outward appearance, not by guessing the heart's condition. And when that outward appearance is unrepentant wickedness, we are called to employ the wrath of God's Law. However, unsurprisingly, most of us think we know better than God how to recall the unrepentant to faith and/or curb the problem of sin. In this way the evangelicals and church growth-ers defend their unceasing violation of the First Commandment. Kyrie Eleison!

[paula]

Oh my.... words fail.

[Jude]

Shannon,

Sweetheart, you have got to calm down. I understand what you are saying is out of anger but please stay calm and don't put yourself in danger of hell's fire. "Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath...Ephesians 4:26" In cases like these, we just have to pray without ceasing for this ministry, because God desires no one to be lost and therefore that should be our desire.

I get very angry too when someone uses God's name, words, etc and twist it into something Satan laughs about, but I have to remember, they are lost for they do not know what they are doing and it's up to me to pray for opportunities to minister to them or for God to reach them. But hating is something that the devil wants you to feel, then you have that in your heart, and how can you then worship God. Don't let this make you go astray, pray about it before you do anything.

[Jude]

Merry,
I don't want to assume something you are not saying but it seems strange to me that you would say "xxxchurch is one of the only ministries I see trying to help" because that is not a fair statement. We do not know other Christian brothers and sisters that are helping out loved ones with something like this. Something doesn't have to be a "ministry" to be helping the masses. Believe it or not, but the bible is the effective ministries that will help someone stay on the narrow path. Once you live those words, any addiction becomes easier to break, but you have to have the bible there, not some gimmick to lead people to Christ.

Also, I don't want to get into a huge debate about this, but accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, does not mean you are a Christian unless you do what He has called for us to do and that is baptism. In almost every instance in the bible, when someone says they believe that Jesus is Christ, it is followed by baptist, Acts 2:38, 2:41 shows us that those who were saved were those who were being baptist, the scripture speaks of baptist being a symbolism of death, burial and resurrection, like Christ (Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death Romans 6:3), and being baptized not only do we receive the Holy Spirit but we have put on Christ ("For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ " Galatians 3:27). In the xxxchurch website, there are no belief statements they have, and based on what they are producing, I have a hard time, not to say that they are not Christians, I just have a hard time believing the fact that they are Christians.

Oh and by the way, being Christians do not mean we cannot be angry, we are allowed to be outraged, we just should not sin while angry. We can show emotion, we are also human.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Merry, I apologize if anything I've written as a comment, here or elsewhere, has wearied you. While there's no place for wishy-washiness* in dealing with sin, one's own or another's, there's also no place for grinding down a brother or sister in Christ as collateral damage. Please forgive me if I have done so to you.

Folks, I'd like to second some of Merry's sentiments. EVEN IF the folks behind XXXChurch mightn't be Christian, we should still shelve the rage and treat them with pure love and some measure of respect. As they are--unbeliever or misguided believer--I'm fairly sure we all were once, in some fashion or other.

* I mean, by "wishy-washiness," not coming to the point or issuing loving, Biblical correction for fear of hurting the offender's feelings. (Key words: loving, and Biblical.)

[merry]

Thank you everyone your comments (I mean it).

First of all, Shannon, there was one thing I overlooked last night, and that was that I got you mixed up with SouthernBelle on one of my comments. You never speculated about any of the leaders viewing porn themselves, that was a comment made by SouthernBelle. Sorry for the confusion, and I hope you weren't too offended.

Deke, I completely agree with your comment. I do not support the methods xxxchurch is using, and I don't think most people here do. That's why I keep saying over and over that we need to be in constant prayer for xxxchurch, and everyone addicted to porn as well. Prayer is powerful, and we can lift anyone up in prayer whether we agree with what they're doing or not (especially if what they're doing is unbiblical).

*Comment to be continued*

[mtcttl]

II Corinthians 6:16-18 also friendship with the world is to be God's enemy to paraphrase The Book of James.

[merry]

Tim, it's true that unrepentant sinners will go to hell. No argument there. We can lift up xxxchurch in prayer. I do not support what they are doing, but I think we can all pray for them.

Jude, yes, I'll retract my statement. XXXchurch is not the only ministry for porn. It was an oversight in my hurry to make a point yesterday. Hopefully we can all pray for them!

Mrs. Pilgrim, you have never said anything that offended me. I enjoy your comments, and appreciate your support. I wish I was as good as articulating what I mean as you are! I get tired of the attitudes among various Christians. I believe we are called to love and pray for everyone, and Christians should never wish anyone to hell, which is what I think some commenters were on the borderline of doing . . . :( Anyway, thanks.

[Gabriel]

If I may say,

The story that immediately comes to mind is this one:

-Acts 16:16-21-

16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

19When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities. 20They brought them before the magistrates and said, “These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar 21by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice.”

she was a paid fortune teller interpreting signs and telling people their future so those employing her would get paid. No doubt that there were those who followed the Lord sincerly in that day and knew how to “know a devil when ya see one.” If she had tried to profit her masters by trying to reach out to the Christian part of the community, she most likely would’ve been turned down by those who knew better. However, as is still the case today, there were those who were still “babes in Christ” and who were still investigating the entire thing of what it meant to follow Christ.

Also, as is still the case today, a person who claims to speak for somebody even when they may say things contrary to the character of that individual may give the impression to many who either don’t know better or who don’t research that what a false speaker said is true.

So imagine what a new-born Christian may be thinking about a woman following Paul and Silas and confirming what they believe in. They probably would be thinking things like, “Hey, she telling the truth…so mabye she has other worthwile things to say…If she told the future on one aspect, mabye all the other sthings she speaks can’t be that bad…mabye she can even tell my story!!”

As G.Craig stated in his video series”The Truth Behind Hip Hop: Exodus into Egypt” (many compliments and thanks to such a watchful and mighy man of the Word as he is and to his powerful dvd/teachingd!),Paul had to rebuke her because she was using him as an “enabler” to get into the church much like many secular artist have to get Christian men and women of influence onto their cd’s or works in order to get validation for their stuff/make it more profitable to their employers.

Once they’re able to get credidation in the eyes of believers, it opens the door for them to enter the church, promote their agenda in place of God’s and sets the stage for the eventual Coup d’état” to take place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

It's basically the thing of maintaing the distinction that truth and evil don't mix....and just as Paul was careful not to appear as if he was linking the Gospel to Demon-related activities, so the same situation is what many have issue with regarding the PORN PUPPET. The general impression is that Ron Jermey is in league with XXX Ministries....

Just my 2 cents

[Shannon]

Jude, I am not your sweetheart, and I will not calm down.

I guess this is precisely what He meant when He said "he who hath ears, let him hear".

You people are either blind, deaf, have comprehension deficits, and/or are plain stupid.

I give up.

Your eyes are scaled, and your ears are plugged.

If God wants them that way, He'll keep them that way.
If He chooses to open them, I guess it's not my job to go trying to rip off scales & unplug your ears beforehand.

And for all of you judging me for being "unloving"

(which - I think - may put YOU in more danger of "hellfire" than I am for being angry, for the REASON I am angry)

Can you please tell me exactly how "loving" Jesus was when dealing with the moneychangers?

Loving isn't always gentle and easy.

Neither is Jesus.

Read what He says about trees and their fruit.

If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't have wasted any of my time arguing with you.

Everything I said -WAS- said in love, whether you perceived it to be or not. Fortunately, God knows my heart.

You were warned.

You will stand without excuse.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Shannon, I fully expected you to pull out the example of Jesus' behavior to justify your own. Now I'm going to deal with it.

Jesus, being God, knows people's hearts. You, NOT being God, do not. Jesus, knowing people's hearts, could take the liberty of speaking harshly to those who did not believe. He could behave in ways that are not prudent for those who are not omniscient. He knew what He was doing. He knew who would listen, and who would not.

Do you?

I'm not saying that there is no place for "telling it like it is"--there is--but there is no place for blind, frothing rage in the Christian life and witness. Blind, frothing rage tends to make one alienate genuine brothers and sisters in Christ--just as you may have done here, and you will certainly do elsewhere, should you continue. It draws no one together.

You say you commented as you did out of love for others. Well, without judging you on this count--speaking only from personal experience--I do advise you to inspect exactly whom you were loving the most.

What I mean is, was it a Christian love of God and man? Or was it a deep self-love and self-righteousness, which reacts with anger because someone disagreed with you? Look long and deep, prayerfully, and with complete impartiality. You don't have to tell me what you decide; I'm not judging you. I'm simply trying to keep you from possibly going a road I went once, and ended up repenting mightily--all alone.

[merry]

Shannon, yes, thankfully, God knows all of our hearts. He knows your heart and He knows mine. In all my comments I tried not to judge, and if I came across sounding like I was trying to judge you, I'm truly sorry. You are my sister in Christ, and I'll be praying for you.

Love in Christ,
Merry

[Shannon]

Good grief.

There has been no "blind, frothing rage".

I'm not angry because people disagree with me, I am angry that people going around claiming the name of Jesus are 1. Being misled, 2. Being ignorant, 3. Doing something they are told by God not to do.

Look, you are literate and capable of reading what Jesus said Himself.

He said you know a tree by its fruit.
He said we are to never resemble the world.
He said we were to have no fellowship with - or make excuses for - evil.

Did Jesus knock over tables and whack stuff with the whip He made out of "Christian love" or "deep self-love and self righteousness"?

It makes no logical sense that I would argue out of self love. This hasn't been any fun for me at all. Quite the contrary. I don't (usually) like to see people go to Hell. It's my thing. It has been for about 30 years. Jesus said there are going to be a LOT of people who think they are saved, who are not, who will be sent to Hell. I like to try to reduce the number of "christians" that is going to happen to.

I am unable to comprehend how all of you can read for yourselves what Jesus said, and yack about these xxxchurch people having good intentions, and throw stones at ME.

I don't need to look "long & deep & prayerfully" about my motives. My motives are what I said they were.

I know what Jesus said, I know what He said is good, I know what He said we should not align ourselves with.

I know He thinks this is garbage, and I know He doesn't think anyone calling themselves Christian should be pansying around stuff like this making excusing for the creators and saying their intentions are "good".

Matthew 10:34,38 (Amplified Bible)

34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

38 And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conforming WHOLLY to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also] is not worthy of Me.

My greatx12 Grandfather was burned at the stake in the 1500's for running his mouth about Jesus, and people who said they were saved, but acted as if they weren't.

Maybe there's a lesson there for me....

[Jude]

Shannon,
Honestly, you are going to far. My comments were based on the comments YOU said: "These people suck, and I am having a very difficult time NOT hating them and hoping they go to hell.

I have not condone anything xxxchurch ministries has done but you certainly didn't take the time to really read my post, or you would have known that.

You know what, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. If you care to know my position, then read my posts carefully, if you choose to stay in your ignorance that is your business. But tomorrow when you re-read these comments, I'm sure you will see something that everyone else has already seen.

Oh and btw, sweetheart is a term of endearment for me, it was never meant to be offensive, if it was, I got the message. Believe me, when it comes to you, I'll never make that mistake again.

[Tim]

Mrs. Pilgrim,

Your counter-argument simply won't fly. We are called to rightly divide the Word of God. This means that the unrepentant, confident sinners (particularly those who think they are right in "promoting" the "goals" of Christ's Church through obscenity) are to be killed with God's Law, to bring them to repentance. And how do we know they are unrepentant? Well, we don't *know*, since we can't see their hearts. Which is why Jesus sensibly advised us to "know them by their fruits."

Meanwhile, the Gospel is reserved for repentant sinners.

(I find it particularly interesting that those who claim that repentance can be achieved through softer, more "loving" means are committing precisely the same error that has ultimately lead to this blasphemy.)

Now, I suspect that Jesus, being God, always divided the Word correctly. However, the fact that we are not omniscient does not excuse us from doing our duty. Recall the parable of the talents. God has given his Church the task of administering the Word and Sacraments. If we decide, like the entertainment evangelists, that we are smarter than God and that His Word of Law ought to lie buried in the earth, unused (because of course it's not "loving" and only drives people away)--then we will end up like that unfaithful servant. Anyway, Jesus hardly invented the concept of preaching wrath. Check out the prophets. And the apostles. (All who happened to be fallible, non-omniscient men.)

At any rate, suggesting that Shannon exhibits "blind, frothing rage" or "deep self-love and self-righteousness" is in astonishingly bad taste and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Might I propose, instead, that genuine Christians really ought not to so quickly silence those who are *actually offended* (gasp!) when members of the Church dishonor her Head? Is hating sin really so terrible? And since when has a "Christian attitude" been narrowed to mean "mild-mannered nice guy?" One wonders just Who started this crazy idea of "hating sin" in the first place...

[Chreeha]

Doesn't mention Jesus? THAT'S litmus test? Hold on while I tear the Song of Solomon and Esther out of my Bible. And all the non-Messianic Psalms too.

Let me get this straight. You'd rather have kids think porn is okay than have a porn guy tell them that it's not for kids? Plundering the Egyptians...anyone ever hear of it?

Let me get this straight again. These guys have enough of a relationship with RJeremy that they can get him to make a video for them? Hmmmm. Jesus wasn't accused of being a glutton and drunkard because He hung out at the synagogue.

Which is more likely: a)RJeremy trust Jesus because he was exposed to the lived Gospel by the xxxchurch guys or b)Boy George trusting Jesus because of his relationship with people from Westboro Baptist? (Google WBaptist if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

I must say that I like their way of reaching out to the porn industry a lot better than my way of not doing it.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Tim, let me try to explain this to you:

1. I never said we shouldn't tell it like it is. In fact, I said we should. I believe in rightly dividing the Word of God, too! You must be new here, if you think I believe otherwise. What I emphatically DON'T believe, though, is that screaming at people and calling them every name in the book universally gets people to say, "Oh, right, of course I was wrong. What a naughty boy am I!"

If you think so, then go ahead and send them a copy of one of Shannon's comments here. See how far it gets you, be they saved or unsaved.

2. Jesus knew what He was doing. He always does. To answer specific inquiries, though:

"Anyway, Jesus hardly invented the concept of preaching wrath." Um, yes He did. After all, He IS God, right? Eternal and everything?

"Check out the prophets. And the apostles." And they were inspired by God to say what they did--so that was God talking, not they. Are you saying that Shannon is inspired? That you are? Or are you saying that the prophets and apostles WEREN'T?

3. You also write: "At any rate, suggesting that Shannon exhibits 'blind, frothing rage' or 'deep self-love and self-righteousness' is in astonishingly bad taste and you should be ashamed of yourself."

Why should I be ashamed for saying that her lengthy screeds, directed at recognized BROTHERS and SISTERS in Christ (such as comment here), are an example of anger that has taken control of better judgment? Do you really believe that her heated words for people like me and Merry and Jude come from a cool head, or someone exercising good judgment?

And furthermore, you assume that I said her attitude WAS of self-righteous conceit. I certainly said no such thing. I was asking her to make sure that she was not in that mindset, based on my own mistakes in the past. How is caring about a sister something of which one should be ashamed? How is that poor taste?

Phrased poorly? Maybe. But I stand by what I said: that when we condemn another for a contrary position, we should ALWAYS be sure that it is not the disagreement with oneself which spurs the reaction, but the Truth being mishandled or ignored.

If the Curator will let me, I would finish my statement here with one last point.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

To those who think that rough handling is necessary:

Why should we not be kind to people who are misguided? I daresay I've been wrong before, and being called a "loser," an "idiot," and an "apostate" (as examples of my experience) only made me so ashamed of myself that I went and hid from those harsh people for years, and even stopped witnessing and reading the Bible for a time.

I HAD MEANT WELL; I was just mistaken--but because of unnecessary roughness, I even hid from GOD for a short time. After all, if I were so wrong as to merit that kind of treatment from established believers, then it must mean I couldn't POSSIBLY be saved! It must also mean that God didn't forgive me when I asked sincerely--so He must not want me at all. (He cured me of that nonsense rather quickly, but I still had those doubts for a short while.)

I'm not saying this is universal, but it's why I don't particularly care to be harsh towards others (though sometimes I am, by accident or by RUNAWAY RAGE). I wouldn't wish that state of fear on ANYONE in a similar position.

All I'm saying is, be careful. God's wrath is not intended for the saved. Let HIM dispense it.

[Doug]

Wow. That has to be one of the weirdest and most bizarre videos I have ever seen.

[Tim]

Mrs. Pilgrim,

There is such a thing as the "casual intrusion of error." There is also such a thing as speeding down the road to hell with the pedal to the floor. Clearly, a more vigorous response is warranted in the latter case.

I think Christians should be free to distinguish between the two without getting dog-piled by misguided gentleness. Indeed, a good example of something that has progressed beyond "casual error" (aside from Pete the Porno Puppet, who is light-years down that road) is this phenomena of Christians immediately shoving chill pills down the throat of anyone whose reaction to sin rises above 'meek and mild,' regardless of what the sin actually is. So I confess that I am not entirely unsympathetic to Shannon's reaction. Give her a break.

Re: 1. What's the problem, then?
Re: 2. No, I am saying that God has given us the tools to determine when we ought to preach wrath.
Re: 3. You left out the possibility of "righteous indignation." Does that prove my point? :(

Chreeha,

I'd rather not choose between a terrible solution and no solution at all, particularly when there are lots of good solutions. One of the more radical ones involves parents actually telling their kids that porn is sinful.

[CIB]

When I first heard of XXXchurch, I was like, "Cool - someone really cares enough about the people that are enslaved to the industry and porn (all from the devil) that they are going to go to them and help." It does sound noble and all - Jesus really does care about those people, as well.

But this? And Ron Jeremy? Please!

Looks like porn is creeping into the church like alcohol did. So I guess as long as porn is done or viewed in moderation, then we're going to allow it. NOT EVEN CLOSE!

[Shannon]

I wasn't going to come back here, but I'm glad I did.

Tim, thank you very kindly. :o)
One day you'll know just how much that meant to me.

Somewhere up there, someone threw out the lame "Jesus ate with sinners" line.

Yes. Jesus ate with sinners.

Where does it ever say He ate or associated with people who claimed Him, yet lived like the rest of the world? I don't think it does. Anywhere.

I came across a very interesting video today. It's 3 minutes long, and the speaker is a man called Paul Washer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYsClDclvf0&feature=user

This video was made by a teenaged girl.

There is hope...

[Tony Rose]

Chris,

I blogged about this back in April of 06:

http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2006/04/25/pete-the-porno-puppet-what-is-he-teaching-children/#comment-16687

tr

[lor]

gentleness is a Fruit of the Spirit - it is never misguided

"If any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also." Galatians 6:1

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." 1 Peter 3:15