Nowadays, any kewl and fun thing that the world is doing can be 'Christianized' by just slapping the word "worship" on it. The video below gives a great example. It's about Hip Hop.Electronica.Dance "Club Worship".
Our favorite line in this video is about learning the role of break dancing in worship. (we did not make that up)
What IS this garbage in the name of worship?? Have people TOTALLY forgotten what worship is about or what?
Posted by: Puddleglumm | January 18, 2008 at 04:53 PM
I knew it! Yes! Break dancing does have a role in worship! Whew. My life is complete. I can die in peace now.
Hee, hee. :)
Posted by: merry | January 18, 2008 at 06:04 PM
Okay - let's say we sit down and watch a football game (Which is not listed in the Bible as either acceptable or unacceptable). In this football game the quarterback is playing on a team with a couple other true Christians and the rest are not saved.
The quarterback and the other guys are all playing for the glory of God, while the others want it for themselves. When the Christians make a touchdown or a big play, they thank God and reflect the glory up to him. They also use their position on the team as a way to build relationships and share the true Gospel of Christ and the need for repentance.
Now we have some guys who like to dance. They like the style of breakdancing which is neither listed in scripture as acceptable or unacceptable (And it takes a lot of skill). Some of these guys are true Christians who want to do everything to the glory of God. Just like the football players, they are among the unsaved and use the opportunity to build relationships and share the true Gospel of Christ and the need for repentance with the unsaved.
Isn't EVERY step of our life supposed to be worship - not just Sunday mornings? What about when David danced - was God disheartened or pleased? If people are breakdancing (Which, by the way, there are no "sexual moves" in breakdancing - at least none I have ever seen) and they do not compromise Biblical truth and doctrine, then why would we oppose?
Of course, there are some who will be more in love with the dancing than the "Choreographer." You get that in all aspects of life. Do we say football is wrong because some or most of the players place it above God Himself or do we say that football is nuetral and it is the player that is either right or wrong? Then why the difference with breakdancing?
The only argument I can think of on the other side is the music, but if it is only beats or music like this:
www.crossmovementrecords.com or http://www.reachrecords.com/index.php
Then what's the deal?
Posted by: CIB | January 18, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Well, Merry, your life may be complete, but mine won't be until I can find "Square Dance Worship" and "Mosh Pit Worship."
Posted by: Reformation Nation | January 19, 2008 at 01:06 AM
Best worded by CIB above...thanks for being articulate where I had a hard time.
Too much judgment is passed on the styles of worship rather than the object of worship. We are called to go into all aspects of culture to redeem what we can for the Lord. Breakdancing is a sin? Loud music is a sin? Flashing lights? If the true Gospel of Christ (not the gospel of fun and games) is preached and taught consistently in this place, how can you fault them? The word of Christ is cause for celebration! Cmon, people.
I have to disagree with the staff on this one. It almost seems like the days when folks said "Rock music? Oh my heavens. Sin!"
Posted by: Spud | January 19, 2008 at 01:22 AM
So they charge for attendance? Sounds like the holy grail of CG/CW. I mean, if people are willing to pay for it...you know the Gospel is selling.
Or maybe it means this really is just a club...marketed to christians who lack the gift of discernment.
Posted by: Tim | January 19, 2008 at 09:50 AM
What CIB and Spud are failing to realize is that "it's not about us and what we think is acceptable to God."
Cain found this out the hard way when he offered what he thought was acceptable to God.
We can speculate all day long, but less time trying to invent ways to make God "palatable" and "cool" to a perishing world, and more time in prayer and the Word, will reveal God's heart and will.
Posted by: Reformation Nation | January 19, 2008 at 04:43 PM
I've seen decent hip hop dancing done to decent Christian music. the young people are innocently having a wholesome outlet for their talent and energy. (not in all cases, of course.)
Posted by: Anna | January 19, 2008 at 05:30 PM
"Forty dollars refreshments included". what I deal. I think I will keep my money.
Posted by: Mike | January 19, 2008 at 08:01 PM
Oh yes, another idea from "man" with a "christianity" label slapped on it. I'm sure the person that came up with this "idea" thought it was "good"...but that's just the problem, "good" has one too many "o's" in it. They may have thought it to be a "good" idea, but it's not a "God" idea!
Even the Tree of the Knowledge of "good" AND "evil" was in the Garden of Eden, but what starts out as only "good" will end up "evil"...BUT if it starts out as "God" then it will always end up "good!"
Posted by: Godlysoldier1 | January 19, 2008 at 10:08 PM
Break dancing, hip-hop dancing, or anything in that video is not bad by itself. It's the hearts of the people doing it that matters. It can be something rebellious, or it can be worshipful. God gave us our talents and abilities and if our talent is dancing, we should use it for God's glory. Everything we do should be an act of worship to God, and that really can include break dancing:). Its our thoughts and attitudes that makes something sinful.
Posted by: merry | January 20, 2008 at 07:42 PM
It comes down to God being Holy. He was very expecit in the Bible about how to worship him. God is the same yesterday, today & forever. This is man doing what "he thinks" God wants rather than studying the Word to see what God wants. Cain choose his own way to worship and that wasn't acceptable. I think the church as a whole needs to step back from trying to be just like the culture & study the Word & seek the Lord's wisdom.
Posted by: Shma | January 20, 2008 at 09:09 PM
Shma - Our whole life should be worship. If we have to do only what is in the Bible then let's get off the internet, stop driving cars, not speak English, stop using air conditioning, etc.
Cain's sacrifice was not accepted because it was not the firstfruit but rather what he thought was the best - he was disobedient. This was about his tithe. Why didn't God show dissatisfaction with David when he danced?
Posted by: CIB | January 21, 2008 at 02:32 AM
One could argue that Uzzah's heart was in the right place because he reached out and took hold of the Ark of the Covenant to prevent it from falling to the ground when the oxen stumbled. Yet God struck him dead for that seemingly innocent act. WHY? Because Uzzah transgressed God's command.
Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu, were also struck dead by the hand of the Lord for offering "strange fire" - i.e., they were worshiping God in a manner that He had not prescribed.
The point is that you cannot just do anything you like, claim it's okay because your "heart is right with God," and call it worship. God is the object of our worship, so *He* gets to decide what is acceptable worship and what isn't - *not* us.
Another major clue that it's not about "worship": the cover charge. Sounds like something that the money-grubber Judas Iscariot would have loved.
Posted by: tigger | January 21, 2008 at 02:45 PM
IIRC, loud music--particularly when it's primarily an off-kilter rhythm with a very limited, repetitious melody--can do funny things to your head. It can disrupt higher-level thought processes, and even, after a while, force an altered state of consciousness.
Listen to "Eastern" music, particularly Indian, and you can see what I mean.
Just an observation.
Posted by: Mrs. Pilgrim | January 21, 2008 at 04:51 PM
Good points tigger!!
CIB, Our whole life is to a service to the Lord. Worship is only one part of it. Yes the Lord does say how he is to be worshiped. It has nothing to do with cars, A/C, English or any of the modern conviences we have today.
Yes David did dance before the Lord on one occasion. I would be willing he didn't do any of the dances that were done for the pagan gods! He didn't say hey for $40 I will show you how to dance.
Posted by: Shma | January 21, 2008 at 04:54 PM
I'm not necessarily agreeing with the group in the video. I am just trying to say that we cannot say dancing before God is wrong, whether it is breakdancing or ballet. As long as we do it for His glory. There are rap groups out there that completely promote guys like Spurgeon, Piper, James White and others. Their doctrine is right. They worship in "spirit and in truth." And in case anyone wants to debate that issue, here is a quote from Calvin on that verse:
"What it is to worship God in spirit and truth appears clearly from what has been already said. It is to lay aside the entanglements of ancient ceremonies, and to retain merely what is spiritual in the worship of God; for the truth of the worship of God consists in the spirit, and ceremonies are but a sort of appendage. And here again it must be observed, that truth is not compared with falsehood, but with the outward addition of the figures of the Law; so that — to use a common expression — it is the pure and simple substance of spiritual worship."
Now, I'm off to work.
Posted by: CIB | January 22, 2008 at 06:32 AM
Just a few short questions. Does anyone think David would have danced in the temple? Do you think he would have danced in the Holy of Holies if he was even permitted to enter? Would he demand payment for it and for others to participate? Just wondering.
Posted by: carol Y | January 24, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Why are people referring to David's worship to God? If I am not mistaken, we do not worship God in the same way that people in the Old Testament do. If someone wants to refer to David's worship to God when he danced-and I do not think the bible tells us if God was pleased or not-lets not forget about the tithing that they did, the animal sacrifices that were made, the burnt offering, the process of cleanliness and keeping the laws.
We cannot pick and choose a certain worship style that was done in the Old Testament, if we want to argue for one part of it, lets argue for all the parts and ask us why we are not worshiping in that manner.
Posted by: Jude | January 28, 2008 at 04:22 PM
Carol - good question. I would like to respond with a quote from the Bible:
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
So contextually speaking, now that this time has come - it doesn't matter where the praise is done. You can praise God the same way in church as you do at home because we can enter the Holy of Holies anywhere we are because of His sacrifice. Does God reject a praise of dance or song regardless of where it is done?
By the way, the Bible DOES instruct us to praise Him with dance:
Let them praise His name with the dance;Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp. - Pslam 149:3
Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes! - Psalm 150:4
I guess some will take the flutes and stringed instruments and say the dancing is "of the devil." Oh - notice that it does not say only to do these things in certain places.
When did the Bible say we were allowed to use the internet? When did the Bible say we should drive vehicles? There are many things that are not in the Bible and we are not told to do that can be used to bring God glory. WHY are some people against different forms of dancing or singing but not against sports or internet or cars?
As far as charging to praise God - I am with you on that. BUT - if this was just marketed as a club where people can come and listen to Christian Music and hang out instead of getting in trouble, getting involved with gangs...then they have to make money somehow. Do we get mad if we are charged by the church when they do a dinner because they have to pay for the food?
May we seek Him alone and bring Him glory in ALL we do.
Posted by: CIB | January 28, 2008 at 11:23 PM
CIB,
When it comes to worship, read what the New Testament tells us to praise God with. And you will see that it says sing and make melody in your heart. Eph. 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
There is no where in New Testament scriptures that ask us to praise God in dance. And again, when it comes to worship, we cannot do what they did in the Old Testament unless it is told to us in the New Testament because that is the new covenant that we are under and we are under the law of Christ, not the old testament law.
Posted by: Jude | January 29, 2008 at 09:22 AM
Jude, you wouldn't happen to be one of those "hardliner" traditionalists from the non-instrumental church of Christ denomination would you?
Posted by: Spiritus | January 29, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Spiritus,
No, I'm not a "hardliner traditionalists", I'm one of those people that err on the side of caution and try and follow what the Bible teaches. New Testament does not speak of instruments in first century church worship and therefore I do not worship with instrument. I understand worship is to be done in a way that pleases God and not me, and if it pleases God to hear me sing to Him-even though my voice isn't the greatest-without instrumental music, then I will gladly sing and make melody in my heart.
Posted by: Jude | January 29, 2008 at 02:49 PM
Jude, but you do know that is not a matter of salvation, correct? The hardliners from your denomination believe that using even so much as a simple piano in worship will send you to Hell. Everything from the name on the door to one's eschatology is a matter of salvation with them.
Also you do know that the NT makes no provision for building edifices called "church buildings". No NT example of that anywhere. You can't even infer it.
You're remark, "err on the side of caution" gives us a clear insight into your understanding of the Gospel message. Get a grasp of just what the cross accomplished and all else falls into place. Tradition just gets us treading water.
Posted by: | January 29, 2008 at 03:15 PM
Spiritus, (if this is you, if not, sorry to assume it was)
Before I begin, I should warn you, that I am not having the best day right now and I am on an emotional rollercoaster, I mean what I say but if it comes off rudely I’m truly sorry it’s not my intention.
I want to start by simply saying that in our messages to each other, it is simply to come to a level of understanding each of our points and that we should always look to God’s word and seek to glorify Him. I am not here to argue with you for argument sake and if that is the case, then I guarantee you that this post will be my last post in response to you about this matter.
The question that you asked of me was this Jude, you wouldn't happen to be one of those "hardliner" traditionalists from the non-instrumental church of Christ denomination would you? My answer was this: No, I'm not a "hardliner traditionalists", I'm one of those people that err on the side of caution and try and follow what the Bible teaches. New Testament does not speak of instruments in first century church worship and therefore I do not worship with instrument. I understand worship is to be done in a way that pleases God and not me, and if it pleases God to hear me sing to Him-even though my voice isn't the greatest-without instrumental music, then I will gladly sing and make melody in my heart.
Now, help me to understand:
(1.) Why I was a hardliner traditionalist for not using instruments in worship.
(2.) What is wrong in “erring in the side of caution”? That mindset is in no way showcasing that I do not understand the message of the gospel.
(3.) How did you come to the conclusion that I have “hardliner traditionalists” in the congregation? Not only that but how dare you come to the conclusion that they believe that if someone so much as uses a piano that they are going to hell.
(4.) What was it in my message that told you that I went to a denominational church?
(5.) Where did I state that instrumental music would lead people to hell?
(6.) What makes you think that I believe a “building” is the Church.
Just to let you know:
I go to a Church of Christ, we are a non-denominational congregation. The congregation that I attend does not use instrumental music in our worship because it is not something we find in New Testament scripture. Because the scripture is silent on that front we also know it is not something we can say that it is a sin to God. I personally will not worship at a congregation that plays instrumental music, because all of my focus and attention would be on the fact that someone is playing music and that I am not sing and give melody to God and the whole point of me being there is to worship God, the music would be a distraction for me, and it is not something I need to get used. When I am worshiping, I am not there to please myself or to be entertained, I’m there for God and for the encouragement of other Christians and knowing that coming together and being able to learn more about the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, taking communion in remembrance of Christ (Luke 22:18-20, Acts 20:6-8), our offerings (1 Cor. 16:2), singing with my heart (Ep. 5:19) and knowing that if I do it in spirit and in truth, it is pleasing to God is what gives me joy.
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 1 Corinthians 6:19. I do not believe that a building is the Church but I also do not believe that if someone build a building and the body, the church, congregate in there would be wrong. Why? Same thing with a house, it was built, I do not associate that as a part of my worship with God. I could worship Him in a home or outside because, all I know is that it is the coming together of the body that is the worship not a building. And I have to make that distinction if not how far do I take it? Do I tell myself that I cannot worship in someone’s house because it is not the same built as those in scripture, or the sand is not correct or the fact that I am not anywhere in the locations that NT scriptures provide. My distinction is simple, if something will get in the way of my worship and its not done in the way that God has described that is pleasing to Him and if it is something that will make another person stumble then leave it alone.
When I say “err on the side of caution” it is simply me stating that I will try and stay as close to scripture as possible. I do not take the gospel for granted but it does not give me the freedom to go ahead and worship God any way I want to. Romans 6:1-3 come to my mind, what shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? I understand that Christ died for my sins and not only have I chose to follow what He says when I was baptized, I also know I have to live an obedient life and I will try and stay to the bible as closed as possible, that is what I will be judged on come judgment day and that is what I will go by.
Posted by: Jude | January 29, 2008 at 08:06 PM
Hi Jude, CIB, Spiritus and all others...
So are we sure the NT church didn't use any instruments? Oh my! Anybody wants to buy a Fender Strat?
Posted by: Eugene Roberts | May 19, 2008 at 05:52 AM