Dark Ages Return Thanks to Emergent Heresy and Willow Creek

This short video is by Mark Van Steenwyk. He was one of the speakers at Willow Creek's "Ancient-Future Community" Conference.

This video pretty much says it all. The pastors at Willow Creek, rather than obeying the Bible and feeding Christ's sheep with the word of God are now telling Christians that they should become 'self-feeders'. What better way is there to 'feed yourself' than to join a monastic community?

Christianity has just reentered the dark ages.

Comments

[Mark]

In short, the "emergent church" and "seeker sensitive" group are nothing more than catholicism. Pure and simple.

[Isaac]

"The American context" ??

It is funny how I've heard the same language here in Tasmania, Australia and the emergents say they are organised and have no leadership. please.

At least he's being clear, though: He wants to be as much in error as the catholics of the middle ages.

There is some good to be learned: Do good to all, be hospitable etc. all good things. Just don't loose your theology on the way.

[Lutherische]

Is this really so surprising? If Rick Warren's church is openly advocating works over faith, then we already have the "ladders of ascent" in place. It is only a small step to return to the place where those ladders existed the most: monasteries. A new growth in a monastic movement is a natural one from the works-righteousness that Warren has been professing all along.

[Mike Baker]

Exactly! I hate to say I told you so, but check out my comment from November 15th on this very blog:

http://www.alittleleaven.com/2007/11/rick-warrens-de.html#comments

As I said before in that comment, "The Purpose Driven Life is the new monasticism. Purpose is the new treasure of merit. The Purposes are the new sacred vows. Christian clothing is the new tonsure. The Mission Statement is the new Rule. The church constitution is the new Canon Law. The Purpose Driven Church is the new cloister. Reporting a Purpose Driven success is the new beatification. Witnessing and outreach are the new Holy Pilgrimages. Purpose, positive thinking, ethics, and goal setting are the new sacramentals. Eternal Security is the new indulgence for venal sin. Religious retreats are the new acts of contrition. Christian self help books are the new relics. Emotionalism is the new Mediatrix. Human reason is the new Magisterium. You are the new pope of yourself. You are the final judge of truth. You speak ex cathedra on the chair of your own heart. You alone are Christ's vicar in your life."

It is so unfortunate that they continue prove me right. Thanks for the video evidence of what many of us have been saying for decades about the direction of American Protestantism.

[Jay]

"The pastors at Willow Creek, rather than obeying the Bible and feeding Christ's sheep with the word of God are now telling Christians that they should become 'self-feeders'. What better way is there to 'feed yourself' than to join a monastic community?"

First off, this was a guest speaker at a conference of church leaders. This is the first I have seen of this video. I attend Willow Creek and you couldn't have gotten the message more wrong. They are not telling us to be self feeders, they are telling us that it is up to us to read our bibles, pray, and personally reflect the goodness of God - DAILY.

Willow Creek provides a mid-week service for the non-seeker's which embodies the teaching of the bible and its not dolled out in an emergent church way. They don't teach God owes us something, or we should expect him to give us good jobs, fine cars, and tons of cash. They teach us to love God and to love other people.

Bill Hybels and Greg Hawkins addressed the body and admitted that "Seeker Services" does not grow Christians. So, I expect the leaders will modify weekend services - the ones they call "Seeker Sensitive".

It is ok for a church to realize they are off track and need to make a change? (I hope so!)

Maybe the people who read this site should find some grace. You are wanting Men to perform at the level of God - unfortunatly, they will make mistakes, and we know this is not possible.

The greatest command is to "Love God", and the second is to "Love People". So where is the love and the grace?!

[Andrew]

I agree with all of the above comments, but I have some additional concerns...

Anytime you hear someone saying that they take the "Sermon on the Mount" seriously and "try to live as Jesus would have them live," you can be sure that they interpret the sermon incorrectly, to their eternal peril. Virtually the whole sermon is an exposition of the Law, laying out how it was MUCH bigger than those who assumed they could keep it ever imagined it to be... Have you lusted? Then you've committed adultery. Are you unrighteously angry? Then you are in danger of judgment for murder. Loving your neighbor is so much more than loving someone exactly like you... The list goes on and on, and lest there be any doubt that this IS LAW and NOT gospel, at the end of Matt 5, Jesus says "You therefore must be PERFECT, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

The Sermon on the Mount is NOT good news! Like all Law in Scripture, it is a picture of what righteousness looks like, so we may behold how dreadfully short we fall short from God's righteous standard. The answer to how to live a life that pleases God is EMPHATICALLY NOT "try harder!" Rest assured that if you look to please God by "trying harder," Mt. Sinai will fall upon you with all its mighty weight and grind you to powder!

Embrace Christ by faith - He alone COULD and DID keep the Law perfectly in every respect, EARNING righteousness under the Law and though He was innocent, still paying the penalty for His people on the cross - to be imputed to everyone who repents of their sins and calls on His name in trust [faith] that He alone can save you from the wrath to come. You have no ability to be righteous apart from being clothed in Christ's righteousness! Almost paradoxically, it is this very faith in Christ and beholding Him that causes us to live lives of gratitude in obedience. Those who would "try harder" have the cart before the horse, and must repent or perish.

Additionally, the new craze seems to be "preaching the gospel without words." Romans 10 declares this to be preposterous rubbish: "But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us? So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Rom 10:14-17)

The gospel is good news (literally, that's what euangelion means), not a lifestyle that people are supposed to be mystically motivated to ask you about... The very LAST thing this world filled with "conflict, change, and transition" needs is a bunch of people checking out of the culture - when they should be preaching the gospel to it. Although, since I'm not convinced they actually have a clue what the true gospel is, I'll bid them a fond farewell and thank them for not making our job even more difficult by presenting a Christless "christianity."

Our world needs a Savior for their sins, not motivation to be "better people". We can't be "better," because we are evil by nature.

In Christ,

~a

[Isaiah]

Though I may not agree 100% with all there theology, I don't think becoming self-feeders means they try to do it "By Works", I think that's totaly of the ball here. I think what it means is the difference between being consumers and being... well lets put it this way. We are commanded to Love right? Well you have the choice to wait around for your church to have some event that "Loves" or you could go out a do something. God is the one who justifies us of course, but as the Apostle Paul warns "Shall we go on sinning that grace may increase! Of course not, we died to sin how can we live in it any longer". Therefore self-feeding is not connected to a gospel of works but a gospel of faith.

[DSz]

Well said Andrew!

[Lutherische]

Jay:

The first part of your response deals largely with explaining your point of view from being within Willow Creek, and there is little to contest.

Concerning your question as to whether a church is permitted to admit its error and repent from it, there is no question here. A church is not only permitted, but it MUST at the peril of the eternal lives of those involved repent! There is no ambiguity to it!

You also said:

"Maybe the people who read this site should find some grace. You are wanting Men to perform at the level of God - unfortunatly, they will make mistakes, and we know this is not possible.

"The greatest command is to 'Love God', and the second is to 'Love People'. So where is the love and the grace?!"

This passage has two points: (1) where is love and grace, and (2) why do those involved with ALittleLeaven want men to perform like God?

As to the first question, I am not loving my neighbor if I see my neighbor in peril of death and do nothing to correct him. Would you hand a glass of water to a drowning man? It is not what he needs. It may seem like love to him who gives the water, but it is not. Thus, if I or any on this site point out these errors, it is out of Christian love and not some ill-bred contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with us.

As to the second question, we do not expect men to be like God. We all fall horribly short of the perfection God demands. Andrew pointed this out rather well in an earlier post. However, when the Gospel is preached purely without human taint, then God Himself is present, and there can be no error. If there is error, then man is too much involved and needs to repent.

Isaiah:

The main problem with the idea of self-feeding is an insinuation that we can be self-supportive when it comes to God's Word. If we are proud enough to believe that we do not need anyone else, then we are relying on ourselves to understand the mysteries of God. Christ did not say to Peter: "Feed yourself," but rather "Feed my sheep" (John 21:15-19). God has not instituted the office of the Holy Ministry for light and frivolous reasons, but rather for the express purpose of serving God's people and "feeding" them with His Holy Word.

I am not suggesting that we should not read the Bible daily, pray often, etc. These things are a commandment of God (John 8:31-32, Luke 11:1-13, Matthew 6:5-15, etc.) However, if we suggest that we can do all things on our own and be "self-feeders," then we have set up the gospel of works as chief in our place. The language of the gospel of works is the same as the language of Adam when he fell: "I can know God on my own terms and not by those He has instituted for my benefit." For this reason, those who say we must rely on ourselves to understand the mysteries of God are in reality placing works over faith because self-righteous works always seek the primary place.

[Christian Baptist]

Andrew,

In your comment about the Sermon on the Mount, you assert that others have wrongly interpreted it (thus implying that you know better). However, in Matthew 7, when Jesus concluded the sermon with the 'house on rock and house on sand' application, saying "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock", by your interpretation Jesus was wrong. In my opinion, whenever someone's interpretation leads them to a conclusion that contradicts Jesus' own words then I trust in the Lord's teaching and not faulty human interpretation.

Just a thought for you to ponder. I will not be back here for two reasons: (1) any blog administered by someone using a pseudonym who is unwilling to provide biographical information raises a red flag which leads me to distrust the site (which is precisely why I used a pseudonym) (2) I have engaged in enough debates on these types of sites to know that they lead more to divisiveness than unity in Christ which means they are a waste of time and energy.

[Christian Baptist]

Andrew,

In your comment about the Sermon on the Mount, you assert that others have wrongly interpreted it (thus implying that you know better). However, in Matthew 7, when Jesus concluded the sermon with the 'house on rock and house on sand' application, saying "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock", by your interpretation Jesus was wrong. In my opinion, whenever someone's interpretation leads them to a conclusion that contradicts Jesus' own words then I trust in the Lord's teaching and not faulty human interpretation.

Just a thought for you to ponder. I will not be back here for two reasons: (1) any blog administered by someone using a pseudonym who is unwilling to provide biographical information raises a red flag which leads me to distrust the site (which is precisely why I used a pseudonym) (2) I have engaged in enough debates on these types of sites to know that they lead more to divisiveness than unity in Christ which means they are a waste of time and energy.

[Chris]

This is just gibberish.

[Els]

I get a little nervous anytime I see a non-military someone in fatigues talking about withdrawing from the world and forming intentional communities...

[Douglas]

"Eternal Security is the new indulgence for venal sin."

Yikes!!!

That is a lie. That is a gross misrepresentation. Eternal Security/Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints is NOT an indulgence or a license for sin, any sin, no matter what type of sin one calls it.

Not one single person who is born again by the Holy Spirit of God is ever lost. If someone teaches that someone can lose and do lose their salvation once they are born again, then they are blatant false teachers, such as the likes of Dan Corner who says that the Doctrine of Eternal Security/Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints is a teaching from Satan, The Devil, the arch deceiver. Dan Corner is dead wrong and woe betide him if he does not repent of his horrible teachings before he dies. How many have misrepresented the Doctrine of Eternal Security/Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints only God knows.

What an awesome responsibility it is to teach and proclaim the truth. God will Judge those who twist and distort and torture His truth. Make no mistakes about that. Where is the fear and trembling at God's word? Where is the holiness of God? Where is the integrity in what one repeats? Peoples ignorance, especially professors of faith relating to sound doctrine, astounds me. All theological errors are sin. They are an affront to the nature and character of God.

Perseverance of Saints

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God's giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon

For non-reformed theologies..."at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God -- and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place."
D.A. Carson

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

[Jason Stauffacher]

I recall the holy catholic church means: the body of Christ worldwide, not a sect of "know-it-all's" from the Baptist tradition. John Piper tradition, or what other tradition you embrace. It is the body of Christ, worldwide.

I am using the small "c" boys and girls. The holy catholic church wants us all to be.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/catholic

Charmed by all your banter.

Jason Stauffacher
A professional resume writer and career coach, friend of Mark Van S
www.razorresume.com

[Nobody Man]

There is nothing wrong with what he said.
It is the same principle as the people in Farenheit 451: people took it on themselves to have HID THE WORD OF GOD IN THEIR HEARTS.

Don't back-bite so much, and have cynicism for the sake of your humour-seeking readership. Show your TRUE LOVE OF CHRIST, and gently edify; praise in public, rebuke in private, THEN AND ONLY THEN take it to the church after rebellion.

Idolatry is more like: spending TOO MUCH TIME watching TV, 'worshipping' your computer, or bowing down to the letter of the Law of Man, or doctrine.

Love your neighbour, as you must love yourself.
Love the LORD your God with all your being.

That is all.