Rick Warren's Denial of Faith Alone

Pay close attention. This video shows Rick Warren denying the doctrines of Sola Fide, Solo Christo & Sola Deo Gloria.

If you're not sure what that all means, here is a link to a lecture given by Chris Rosebrough (The Curator of this Museum) that Biblically refutes Warren's teaching. Click Here to Listen You can view the powerpoint slides for this lecture by clicking here.

***For more context for the video clips read this article and watch the video of the sermon entitled Managing Your Time

John 3:16   “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Comments

[Mark]

Wow. This shocked me. I have always had my doubts about Rick Warren, but this is over the edge. This guy is preaching another gospel.

[Elaine]

In the Gospels, when people ask Jesus "What must I do to be saved" or such..what does he say?

"Sell everything and give the money to the poor"
"Be born again of water and the spirit"

So on and so forth.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Elaine,

Take a close look at John 6:27-29 it says...

John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Also, take the time right now to read all 5 chapters of the book of Galatians. Keep in mind that book was written to a church that was mixing the law with the gospel and saying that people were not Christians unless they also observed and kept the Jewish law.

The good news is that Jesus Christ kept the law perfectly for us. On the cross Jesus took our sin upon himself, when we have faith in Christ His Righteousness is put upon us.

[Mandi]

I fail Rick Warren's test...miserably and every day.

What really angers me about sermons like this is that the unwitting churchgoer believes it to be true because the pastor says it is so, which is great if your pastor is preaching Biblically-based sermons, but alarming when he is not. My heart goes out to those blindly following these men.

I'm curious to know what Bible passage Rick Warren used for this sermon...IF he consulted the Word at all!

[Tracy]

The final exam for Christianity 101:

1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
17 ...but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 3
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil...
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.

1 John 4
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

I do not point out all these verses to say that we are saved because we follow the commandments and love others, but to show that it is folly to think that one who is saved can be a person who disobeys God's commands and who does not love others. By virtue of the fact that he has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, his new nature now will long to keep the commands of God and love others.

These are important points because there is a huge element of christendom which would say that once you're "saved" there's no longer any rules, and any effort to obey the commands in scripture is pure legalism. Such an attitude logically becomes antinomianism and rejoices in the so-called liberty which allows all kinds of foolishness and sin, which is actually licentiousness.

1 John is given to us to show us the veracity of our profession. If we don't obey God's commands; if we don't delight to do His will; if we sin and keep on sinning without a conscience about it; if we love the world and worldly things; and if we do not love the saints, we are mere professors, and have not the Spirit of Christ within us.

[DSz]

I'm not sure I have a problem with what is said in this video. I think that there is a place for exhortation of the believer to seek in all areas to please God. I didn't hear him saying in these clips that being responsible with your time and money were the basis for your justification but rather the way we live out our lives either pleases God or does't.

[James]

Tracy,

I have some questions for you.

Do you keep the law perfectly? Do you still sin?

If you still sin then aren't you a "mere professor" of the faith and one who does not have the Spirit of Christ?

[Kimberly]

This sounds so familiar? oh I remember I was a Mormon for 20 years... Mormons believe exactly what he said, I wonder what Rick Warrens Job in heaven will be? I am so thankful that I have been saved by Grace alone, and thats enough for me.I thought we where going to be praising God in heaven and that we would find rest there. I had enough fake stuff to last a life time and I don't have to "make Up" for any lost time since I was not saved sooner, Heaven is not Amway, the sooner you sign up the more you get?

[Jordan]

It may be in line to remember that the context of the quotes the video gave is needed. I don't feel that the video itself is condemning, on the grounds that Warren did not say that we have to be responsible as a grounds for justification, versus our love for others as a fruit of the Spirit.

However, if Warren did not differentiate between the two, in context, he still needs to be admonished for that error.

I am by no means a supporter of Warren, having read a good portion of his PDL book, and find it to be the gospel shallow trash that floats around.

[Frankie]

Tracy, those scriptures are perfect (as all are) but I think we forget the fact that we often water down words. So many people say the "believe" in Jesus and that he died and rose again...are all those people Christians? In James it says even the demons believe and tremble. What separates us from the who say they "believe" is action. Faith requires action. It is by grace I am saved, but by my works they will know me.

John 15: 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

PS How is the thief in Heaven, when he was not told to repent of his sins and shown he was a bad person? (btw I believe him to be in Heaven)

[James]

Faith ALONE saves AND Saving Faith is NEVER alone. Someone who is a Christian will do good works. But the works don't save nor do they earn merits.

I recommend listening to Chris Rosebrough's lecture on this. It is really good and informative.

[Mike]

It seems a bit disingenuous to only quote snippets of this video and make brief comments on it.

Some of the responses seem to put words in his mouth or actually say he's saying something that he isn't.

This is pretty much just (yet another) argument over Romans where people believe and actually may actually say the same thing, but preconceived decisions simply prevent them from agreeing.

I have problems with Warren's teachning, but you shouldn't have to resort to shortcuts like this to try and make a point.

[Neil]

Warren's message is confusing, to be sure. If he made it crystal-clear that he was talking about Christians only, then he is right that there are rewards in Heaven. That theme is all through the NT (Randy Alcorn covers this in depth in a terrific book called "Heaven.").

But good deeds don't save anyone. Without grace and faith alone a person won't get to Heaven.

[Alice]

I'm no fan or supporter of Rick Warren and his Purpose-Drivel. However, I don't necessarily think he was preaching specifically a gospel message here. We can't see all of the context, but perhaps he was preaching vis a vis the parable of the talents. However. If you want to hear a good Bible-based sermon re that, you can find it here: http://www.walkintheword.com/broadcast.aspx, called "Seizing My Opportunity."

[Tony]

I am no fan of Warren's gospel. In fact I was pushed out of my last church because of my opposition to the adoption of the Purpose Driven Program. So please get this in context.

It seemed to me that in the clip provided Warren was not preaching justification by works to ensure salvation. He was preaching to believers about the submissive obedience of believers that will be rewarded in heaven. He's talking laurels not salvation, albeit he is doing it incompletely and without a proper context that I could see.

If I were going to preach about laurels it would include the concept that every crown will be cast at the feet of Christ, Who is the true source of all that is good and lasting - even (no! - especially) when it is done through us.

But I think the foundation for the particular criticism given here just isn't found in the video clip that was used.

[Larry]

Rick Warren is my Pastor. He has never denied that we are saved by Grace, and grace alone. He does point out that there are two judgements, and God will hold us accontable for what we did with His son. These edited comments do not include the whole Rick Warren and his message. As for me, I am a sinner saved by Grace. As Rick encourages me, I serve the Lord every day by showing love for Him, and love for others. Well at least I try to, and I know I have a forgiving Father.

[James]

I attended Saddleback for a little over 2 years. I left because I wasn’t being fed. I sat under this preaching and don’t think that video was dishonest. I don’t think it was honest enough! The Sunday worship experience is supposed to be geared for the un-churched yet week after week Warren’s sermons are about some practical topic like finances, time-management, relationships, family issues, addictions and Week After week you hear about how you need to apply certain steps in order to please God and earn his blessing or some crap like that.

I barely ever heard about Jesus and when I did I thought Jesus was the CEO in the sky looking to see if I’d become a productive little purpose-driven American who had his career, money and family problems sorted out so that he could spiff me with some blessing or an additional room or bigger pool for my eternal mansion.

As best as I could figure making a decision for Jesus at Saddleback was like being hired at Heaven Corp. Once I started, it was my responsibility to do a bunch of good works so that I could pad my retirement plan.

That Jesus is a load of crap and that gospel is not the Biblical gospel. My only regret is that I didn’t scream out in the middle of the service that Warren was full of crap.

[DJackson]

I'm not a big fan of Warren, but after watching this video again, I think it's not quite accurate and I agree with the others that we are not seeing the whole picture here, the context. Rather, let's here the context of the whole thing before judging.

[James]

Larry,

Not denying salvation by grace alone through Faith alone is a lot different that proclaiming that truth week after week. As I've stated before, I attended Saddleback for a little over 2 years and I know first hand that his practical purpose-driven life application sermons don't outright deny grace alone, but they sure do undermine it. I don't remember ever hearing Warren preach Christ. He always preach the things that we have to do to be a good christ follower. Plus Warren was constantly tearing Bible verses out of context and preaching them fortune cookie style. This video didn't go far enough to expose Warren's false gospel of works.

[Mark]

I cannot believe that people are upset that these video clips appears to be take Warren out of context!!! Have any of you actually read the Purpose Driven Life? Warren is the supreme master of Bible twisting and taking things out of context!! My church did the 40 days of community a couple of years ago and this video nails Warren's works based "gospel".

If Warren got taken out of context then he deserves it because he does it all the time with God's Word!

[Alise]

Where does the bible teach that life is a test and that if you come into the test late then you have a lot of making up to do?? The Bible does not teach that!!! What would the average person think after hearing a lie like that?? What kind of God is Rick Warren trying to push here?

[Truth Seeker]

I did some poking around in order to get more context on the video posted above. Chris Rosebrough links to this article above http://www.extremetheology.com/2005/11/foundation_for_.html I read it and saw that he does a good scholarly job of explaining and providing the context for the first bite which was taken from the DVD for the 40 days of community. Part 2 of Chris' critique is also good. It can be found at http://www.extremetheology.com/2005/11/40_days_absurdi.html

The church preaching that is quoted in the video is taken from a sermon called "Managing Your Time" the link to the sermon is http://saddlebackfamily.com/mediacenter/services/currentseries.aspx?site=yDi0V4EwP58=&s=oH4eRp6HoF8=

I could only listen to about the first 20 minutes of that sermon before I became too angry to continue listening without sinning. Wow! The sermon is way worse than the piece shown in video. Warren does some serious scripture twisting. I don't think I've seen anything like it.

[Philip]

As others have said, I am no Warren fan but a bigger context would be helpful before we point fingers at this particular clip. It is possible to pit verses from James with some of Paul's writing and say "look at these contradictions" while not looking at the context and who the letter is written to.

Faith alone saves but faith is never alone. Spurious faith does not save and is not true saving faith. Faith Works! It acts according to the new nature.

[Paula Coyle]

Yeah many of us have known he's a false teacher for quite some time. But wow. I am always amazed at how he just doesn't even back down from the idiotic stuff he says and does... he actually repeats it!!

[Mike Baker]

It is almost impossible for Rick Warren to directly deny Faith Alone because of the SBC teaching of eternal security. To Baptists, a Christian cannot lose salvation so a lack of works would not endanger salvation and a presence of works could not secure salvation because they say, "Once saved always saved".

SBC seminary President R. Albert Mohler Jr. said in 2006, "Once this work of salvation is accomplished in the life of a sinner, and that sinner is transformed by the grace and mercy of God, He can never fall away."

This idea is contrary to Scripture [Heb 6:1-8, 2 Pet 3:17].

If you take away the error of eternal security, he is denying Sola Fide because he is saying that your works can please God. To Lutherans it sounds like Sola Fide denial (and it is), but that is not the Baptist understanding. Eternal Security flavors their idea of what salvation is.

With eternal security, Sola Fide only really applies at the point of conversion. You are saved by faith alone at that single moment in time when you are born again. After that, everything you do is "new obedience" because you cannot be anything other than securily saved... even if you deny the divinity of Christ and become an athiest. This means that a Baptist can teach contrary to Sola Fide without saying that you are saved by works. To them, you were already saved and will always be saved. That's in the past so these works don't apply. At this point, your works--even your faith--cannot effect that.

Their creeds are effecting their deeds.

In order for a Baptist to specifically teach against Sola Fide, he would have to say that works can please God prior to being born again. After that point, you are always saved and so nothing plays into your justification. You move on to sanctification and can never go back. This is why Baptists will not understand that this is a denial of Sola Fide.

From the Video: "Some of you are actually getting into this test a little late. So you've got some making up to do. And you didn't realize that life was a test. And so now in the later stage of your life you've got to make the most of what you've got..."

Someone please tell me what possible context could justify a pastor in making this statement. What overall sermon or lesson point could shed new light on this excerpt to make it better than how it sounds? This is not out of context because there is no context that would make it any better. I played it for my SBC father and he was shocked. He took immediate offense because, as an SBC deacon, he understood what Rick Warren was actually saying.

Imagine what hurting sinners are taking away from this lesson! Let's break it down:

1. "Some of you are actually getting into this test a little late." ...the test must be the Christian life and not life in general since you can enter it late. So, God has made your life as a Christian a test. The test is to please God with the gifts that God has given you. Since the SBC believes that you cannot lose salvation, Rick Warren must mean that this test is of your merit as a Christian. The test is not your faith (that is eternally secure). It is your stewardship... your works. Christians live under the Law.

2. "So you've got some making up to do." ...life-long Christians are ahead of you in the area of pleasing God with the gifts that He has given you. They have pleased God longer and accrued more merit with their stewardship than you. So this stewardship is not really about doing good works either. It is about earning merit by pleasing God. If it was just about doing good works, you would just do them. This is about keeping score. You have less merit so work harder. You have to keep up with the Joneses in heaven, too?!

3. "And you didn't realize that life was a test." ...as a nonChristian you did not understand that life was about pleasing God with the gifts that He has given you. You have wasted most of your time for earning merit to please God.

4. "And so now in the later stage of your life you've got to make the most of what you've got" ...you are not as well off as life-long Christians because you entered this test late. Your Christian life is somehow less than other Christians and you have to "make the most of what you've got". Your Christian life is cast in a negative tone. It will take more work from you to equal how much they please God because of your late entry into the test. Christians live under the Law and some are better off than others. You please God by what you do.

This is a terrible message to tell converts who are older. It tells them that they are not as pleasing to God as others who were saved earlier in life. We left this kind of teaching during the Reformation.

The correct message is that you please God because of who you are (and Whose you are). Now you are free to do truly God works in the name of Christ. The Holy Spirit has empowered you to do good works. These good works naturally flow from your faith. We do not seek to merit grace or favor by these works, but do them as an out flowing of gratitude and thanksgiving for our salvation. In heaven, all praise and glory will be given to God. You will be given a crown in heaven, but you will cast that crown before the throne of Almighty God. It is not about you. It is about love of God and love for you neighbor.

As a Christian, you will do good works because faith is never without works. So long as you have living faith, you are bound to do good works. A vine does not need to be told to produce fruit. It does so automatically so long as it is still alive. As a Christian, you use the Law to show you God's desire and teach you how to obey His will. This new obedience is an outpouring of your salvation and is powered by the Holy Spirit. Each time we fail and repent, Christ offers a limitless fountain of forgiveness and mercy. Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Mike,

That was a well written and well argued comment.

[Mike baker]

Thanks.

As a former Baptist from the SBC in Texas, I know what I am talking about. I left the SBC when I realized that the Bible contradicted their theological system everytime I read it using unbiased exegesis and basic grammar analysis. When I stopped letting Baptists tell me what to think about specific verses and doctrines, the Bible became clear and undeniable. The truth of Holy Scripture drove me out of there.

My heart aches. Rick Warren has fallen into the error of legalism time and again. By helping Jews and Mormons grow their doomed congregations, his Purpose Driven program has committed apostasy and soul murder.

The Purpose Driven Life is the new monasticism. Protestant America has revived the merit system that existed prior to the Reformation and has started to call it godly again. They say that all Christians are saved, but Purpose Driven Christians are more pleasing to God. There is a method that enables you to be more holy and useful for the Kingdom. That is the same argument that Rome uses when advocating the taking of monastic vows and sacred orders.

> The Purpose Driven Life is the new monasticism.
> Purpose is the new treasure of merit.
> The Purposes are the new sacred vows.
> Christian clothing is the new tonsure.
> The Mission Statement is the new Rule.
> The church constitution is the new Canon Law.
> The Purpose Driven Church is the new cloister.
> Reporting a Purpose Driven success is the new beatification.
> Witnessing and outreach are the new Holy Pilgrimages.
> Purpose, positive thinking, ethics, and goal setting are the new sacramentals.
> Eternal Security is the new indulgence for venal sin.
> Religious retreats are the new acts of contrition.
> Christian self help books are the new relics.
> Emotionalism is the new Mediatrix.
> Human reason is the new Magisterium.
> You are the new pope of yourself. You are the final judge of truth. You speak ex cathedra on the chair of your own heart. You alone are Christ's vicar in your life.

It's not about God's will. It is about the will that you have fashioned for God. It's not about Christ, the cross, or even a life of repentence anymore. It is about doing good works and using humanly devised methods to become as holy as possible. Now that you are saved, you should become holy and embrace your true purpose: earning merit for the afterlife by living as holy a life as possible. This is nothing less than currupted, medieval monasticism.

This is not a second reformation. This is a reversal of the victory of the Reformation. This is a return to very old, dangerous error. There is nothing new under the sun. This is a full embrace of Rome with a pretty contemporary face. The work of the blessed fathers of the Reformation is being trampled on as people run back to merit, legalism, and purpose. It is all devilish mythology. I am grieved me to my very core. I feel as if my guts are being ripped out.

[Douglas]

"SBC seminary President R. Albert Mohler Jr. said in 2006, "Once this work of salvation is accomplished in the life of a sinner, and that sinner is transformed by the grace and mercy of God, He can never fall away."

This idea is contrary to Scripture [Heb 6:1-8, 2 Pet 3:17]."

Mike, Christians cannot lose their salvation nor fall away completely and the doctrine is not contrary to Scripture. What you say is false and misleads those who read what you have to say. Christians can backslide and they do, but they can never ultimately lose their salvation, otherwise God is not God. If a Christian could lose their salvation then God is a God of broken promises and cannot be trusted. But God does not break His promise and can be trusted, to preserve us until the end. We persevere until the end.

Hebrews 6:4-8 on Apostasy
by Bob DeWaay
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue49.htm

Preservation/perseverance of the Saints is not error. The terms are often misunderstood, the actual teachings are often distorted by their opponents.

See here for more studies on the subject:

Perseverance of Saints
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Perserverence-of-Saints/

Eternal Security has been horribly twisted and distorted by people like Dan Corner who calls it a doctrine from the devil. Christians ARE eternally secure in the LORD Jesus Christ, now and forevermore.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

[Joshua]

As stated above, even demons (Satan himself) know that Jesus is the Christ. Likewise, as it pertains to good works or showing great responsibility for the gifts of God, some of the most fiscally responsible individuals I know are either atheists or agnostics. Moreover, the best family man I’ve ever know, who happens to be my boss and friend that devotes a great deal of time to his family, recently revealed to me that he is a Wicca. Jesus stated that even a father, who is evil, wouldn’t give his son a stone if he asked for a loaf of bread.

No…the problem here is that it is through faith and belief alone. The actions of most church goers during the recent fires, as well as Katrina, mirror the same actions of professing atheists and agnostics.

[Dale Gehris]

First of all, people don't read sermons posted. Keep 'em short!
Second, it is funny how many Christians become defensive are argue when I warn them about Rick Warren's teachings. Yet they display no like passion for the gospel of Christ!

[Mike Baker]

I'm glad that a man's commentary is there to tell us what to think about what we've read from God and the correct way to "understand" passages. Commentaries are not infaliable. They do not make dogma. In this case, you do not draw that human conclusion by reading the Greek for Hebrews 5-8.

...and, btw, apostasy is unbelief because it is treason against Christ. If someone truly believed, they would not commit apostasy.

I also site: 1 Cor 9:25-27, 2 Peter 2:20, Colossians 1:21-23, Revelation 3:2-5, 2 Peter 1:10

As to John 10, notice what it says:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

God does not lie. If you do not follow or hear, He does not know you. All of that is PRESENT TENSE, people. Do not forget that you serve a Righteous and Holy God. He cannot abide by sin. His wrath is turned against those who remain secure in unrepetence. His mercy is offered to all who repent and believe (again PRESENT TENSE)

Only the sheep, those who FOLLOW and HEAR Christ have eternal life and eternal security. Only the sheep that HEAR (present tense! it does not say "heard") His voice are His sheep. His sheep are His sheep because they FOLLOW and HEAR His voice (not because they FOLLOWED and HEARD his voice). This is one of those simple grammar school things I was talking about. Christ knows His sheep: they FOLLOW and HEAR him. Your own supporting passage disproves your point.

So, the truth is that no man can pluck from Christ's hand the sheep, those who FOLLOW and HEAR the masters voice. Compare that with the parable of the sheep and the goats to understand what I am saying. If you are not following and you are not hearing, the rest of the sentence (everything after the colon ":" in this translation) does not apply to you... you are not His sheep. Only those who FOLLOW and HEAR are Christ's sheep. Christ's sheep exist in the present tense.

If you are still on the fence even in the face of the clear statement of Christ, apply a version Pascal's Wager and seriously consider the safer belief.

I was not here to debate doctrine. It is never fair. I use the Bible and the other guy uses what someone told him about how to interpret the Bible. Most of the time, it is a pretty futile exercise.

I was only here to explain why the author of the blog says this is a denial of Sola Fide. Everyone said it was not. I explained why they thought that way by explaining Baptist doctrine. Since I am not a Baptist, I cannot explain Baptist doctrine in good conscience without explaining my opposition to it. If it makes me sound like I am making a sermon, I apologize. This is the last that I need to post on this subject, I have made my point. Thanks.

[James Sundquist]

RICK & SOUTHERN BAPTIST PRESIDENT FRANK PAGE

In light of Dr. Frank Page speaking at the Florida Baptist Convention this week, please be alerted to the following response to Dr. Frank Page. There is another side of the story which contradicts his own published statement and campaign theme.

My initial appeal and letter entitled:
Response to SBC President Frank S. Page's "Better Together" & Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs. Scripture

which generated his response is now posted at: http://lightingtheway.blogspot.com/search?q=Sundquist

I note that you are a consultant in Peacemakers Ministry. You can surely see how Dr. Frank Page's policies and behavior collide with biblical peacemaking Scriptures.

Sincerely in Christ,

James Sundquist
Director
Rock Salt Publishing

P.S. In the event that you may not believe my report, I invite you to contact Pastor Bob DeWaay, Twin City Fellowship in Minneapolis, who will corroborate my testimony regarding Rick Warren. He has also written a book on his teachings. You can reach him at:

Twin City Fellowship
2734 Rhode Island Ave. S.
St. Louis Park, MN
(Corner of W 28th St. & Rhode Island Ave. S.)
For further information, please call 952-935-3100.
********

November 7, 2007

SUBJECT: JAMES SUNDQUIST RESPONSE TO FRANK PAGE, PRESIDENT OF THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION & PASTOR OF TAYLORS BAPTIST CHURCH

I am in receipt of SBC President Frank Page's your letter regarding my appeal to him, his staff and members of his congregation. Here is his letter:

Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:10 PM

Subject: RE: Second request re Florida Baptist Convention

Dear James,

I will preach the Gospel at the Fla meeting. I will not be attacking other believers. Please do not send any more of your material to my staff or to me.

In Christ,

Frank Page

I send all emails expecting that, as a matter of courtesy, the recipients would ask my permission before sharing them with others. I hope you will honor this request, and if you received this email in error, that you would let me know, deleting your copy of it.

Here is my response.

First of all I would like to compare this response to his own historical statement:

“Southern Baptist Convention president Frank Page said Tuesday the denomination needs to set aside internal differences and be both "right and relevant" to revive languishing membership trends. When we speak the truth without love, it leads to a cold-hearted legalism that our world has come to say is the caricature of […]” SOURCE: http://christianresearchnetwork.com/index.php?s=missional

So by his own definition, Dr. Frank Page's response to me is “cold-hearted legalism”...in speaking what he believes to be true...[I am not conceding that Dr. Page is even telling the truth by implying that I am bearing false witness against him and Rick Warren because I am attacking a brother.] If this is love, I sure hope I am not around when he doesn't speak the truth in love, assuming he even allows his members to hear the truth, since he bars them from hearing from me. Forbidding his staff from hearing the cries and SOS calls from SBC victims...this is love? Any reasonable person would construe “attacking” as implied slander NOT legitimate correction or rebuking a brother.

Now let us compare Dr. Frank Page's response to me with these Scriptures:

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” II Timothy 2:24-26

I must also ask how Dr. Frank Pages' response obeys these Scriptures:

“Show proper respect to everyone” I Peter 2:17

“When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate.” I Peter 2:23

“Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.” I Peter 3:15

and

“Brothers, do not slander one another” James 4:11

“But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.” Colossians 3:1

“Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling, and slander, along with every form of malice.”

“Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there remember est that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” Matthew 5:23-24

I am desperate to know if there is ever any situation in which these people think that correcting, opposing, rebuking, rebuking sharply, reproving, warning, silencing voices which ruin whole households, entreating, bringing an accusation against an elder with two or more witnesses, taking a brother before the entire church, turning a brother over to Satan, calling for repentance, admonishing, warning, appealing, expelling, exposing those who shipwreck the faith of many, which are all verbs the Apostle Paul used, is NOT "attacking other believers" , but actually helping them and the church? Is there one person that this was done to in which they believed the action helped the person vs. destroying them as they allege? I am not slandering Rick Warren if I am telling the truth about him...comparing his own published words with Scripture. But for me to remain silent in face of his published teachings , I would be harming him as well as those he teaches to follow him. It is the Lord alone I must fear. Rick Warren is also harming himself by resisting correction and not amending his published teachings.

Now much of this assumes that Rick Warren is even a brother. No man can know whether or not he is with certainty. But we can and must treat him as though he were not a brother, based on Paul's own commands to the church:

Tts 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 5:11 "You must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother, but is sexually immoral, or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler."

and the Apostle John's warning:

1JO 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1JO 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

1JO 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

1JO 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

1JO 4:5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.

Those verses right there should be all any pastor needs to know to discern that the Purpose Driven movement is not from God.

Dr. Frank Page has asked that I refrain from further writing him or any of the staff of Taylors First Baptist Church. I will honor the request to not directly write him, for I have fulfilled my biblical obligation to appeal and to warn him twice. But I will can not comply with his request to cease from writing the staff members listed on Taylors First Baptist Church or the members of his congregation. I will also continue to alert the Southern Baptist Church at large and the various discernment ministries and Christian radio programs throughout the world, unless they specifically asked to be removed from my mailings. It is obvious from his letter that he is trying to intimidate me, which is quite common among Purpose Driven Pastors. Unless Dr. Frank Page prohibited them for speaking for themselves, I will let them speak for themselves, if this is their request...they have but to email me with a request to be removed from my mailing list, and I will happily comply. This will also serve to verify their solidarity with him, if this be the case. Let their yeas be yea and their nays nay. Dr. Page may have the power to stop his congregation from engaging in reciprocal dialog, but he does not have the biblical mandate to prevent this. It should be obvious to everyone what Pastor President Frank Page does not want [members of his own congregation] to hear. Do members of Taylors First Baptist Church want their pastor telling them with whom they can and can't correspond? One can't help but wonder why Dr. Frank Page doesn't attempt censor my communications with pastors, staff, and members of the entire Southern Baptist Convention. If he is so against “attacking other believers” why does he continue to promote Rick Warren who attacks other Christians by calling Fundamentalist Christians “enemies of the 21st Century”? Rick Warren more than attacks other believers...he removes them if they oppose or resist is global agenda and bars them from membership if they refuse to sign his many covenants. And if Dr. Page believes in this so strongly, why does he use incendiary language such as “attack a believer” in retaliating against me vs. respond and answering my questions? How about Dr. Frank Page saying something like:

“Wow, this is very serious, thank you for bringing it to my attention! I will make every effort to let their voices be heard instead of silencing them, for I know that even in the secular world, victims of a crime are allowed to make a victim's statement in a courtroom. I will be sure that some of them are allowed to speak and invite them myself to the platform if I have to! I can't very well make an announcement to SBC brothers and sisters that we are “better together”, then fail to follow through with the offer, rendering it a sham and bringing further humiliation on victims of our campaign to enforce compliance with Purpose Driven teachings and covenants. What a hypocrite I would be if I were to now treat them as illegal aliens in the Body of Christ. But I should have no trouble doing this act of contrition and restitution because I am President of the entire Southern Baptist Convention, and I certainly have the moral authority to do so! And it is imperative that I extend this olive branch!”

Did the Apostle Paul “attack” Peter, because he was clearly in the wrong, or was he doing what he the Bible teaches and that is expose false teachings and marking them if they don't repent? Paul was sharply rebuking and doing so publicly, as I am do so with him, as this is public matter.

Dr. Page's response is no surprise...totally unrepentant and zero compassion for PDC victims and absolutely now indication whatsoever that he would even entertain or give any audience to Christians who are simply trying to be good Bereans.. Therefore, I will not honor his request regarding sharing his email with others (unless this were a private matter which I would of course respect confidentiality and disclaimers). This is a matter of public teaching requiring public rebuke.

Dr. Page could have used a little more grace, even if Dr. Page disagrees and wishes to defend Rick Warren's teachings. And even if I oppose him, Paul has specific instructions and procedures on how to deal with even opposition which does not even remotely resemble his response to me. For Dr. Page to react like emotional nitroglycerin does not remind me of the fruit of the spirit of self-control. His response would hardly constitute anything resembling “come, let us reason” as the Apostle Paul tells us. It is perfectly responsible for Christians to engage in an honest dialog about the dangers of PDL. Is Dr. Page suggesting Christians can't send an unsolicited email to another Christian, or even a church that claims its teachings are Christian which they have already publicly posted on their own church website? If this is true. Martin Luther had no business posting his “unsolicited” 95 Theses on the Wittenberg Door. Paul spent most of his ministry preaching to “unsolicited” and even hostile audiences. Besides this, the leaders of Dr. Page's church post various groups have virtually placed a banner on their site advertising themselves, with name and email addresses. So this tells me that they are willing to receive inquiries and commentary regarding Rick Warren. Is Dr. Page telling me that they are only interested in receiving emails that toe the party line and are in complete agreement with the teachings they promote? If this is his position, he should put that disclaimer by every email address, because someone else at some point is bound to also send an email letter of concern to them....only to get blasted or have their email ignored. And it is not as though Dr. Frank Page has not already been confronted. Other Christian brothers and Pastor Ken Silva at Apprising Ministries has confronted him too, beginning in 2006, but still he refuses correction:

http://hottubreligion.wordpress.com/2007/05/25/apprising-ministriesken-silva/

&

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/01/letter_to_south.html

He has also now despised even reaching out to the victims of Purpose Driven Teachings. What a great opportunity lost to reconcile with these saints that Rick Warren's training has purpose-driven out of churches all over the world at the Florida Baptist Convention and other SBC venues where he speaks. Though he has given lip service and a form of godliness in publicly stating that Southern Baptists are “Better Together,” his defiance speaks in his email speaks volumes. For those of you attending the Florida Baptist Convention, why don't one of you call his hand and stand up and ask him to give disposed SBC members the mike and platform? What kind of Christian witness is it prevent the Southern Baptist attendees to hear the other side of the story? Dr. Page even acknowledges that there are factions of SBC out there who will not even talk to each other. Then Dr. Page sets a fine example by becoming one of these very people by refusing to talk to me. I too have witnessed first hand the divisions in the church when I spoke at the East Coast Prophecy Conference a in 2004. Since then the emails continue to roll in from PDC victims all over the world. I personally spoke with God-fearing members from churches all over the country come up to me in despair at the same kind of response by Dr. Frank Page issued to me, that they were getting at Rick Warren's PDL churches for questioning his teachings and the churches implementing his programs, only to be vilified and marked as trouble makers, and in many cases ousted from their congregations. And these very same SOS calls are flooding into many other ministries too such as Southwest Radio, Pastor Bob DeWaay, Moriel Ministries, and Contending Earnestly for The Faith in Australia and many others I mentioned in my recent letter to Dr. Page. But I had thought better of Dr. Frank Page, particularly after his recent “Better Together” statements. But I was wrong.

Does Ephesians say "expose the deeds of darkness" unless the perpetrator wrote a disclaimer on his plans or sent it to someone confidentially and did not give permission?

Therefore, I will not honor his request regarding his staff. What is he trying to hide from them? Wouldn't his staff want to know? Shouldn't his staff, deacons and members know...unless they are also accomplices? Let them make such a request...unless pastor is master and thought control censors any ability on their part to answer for themselves. If these staff members post their email address and are prevented by him from responding unless it promotes the party line, then they should say so and make it clear on the website. Dr. Page may have already told his staff not to respond to me, but there were no carbon copies and I have no way of knowing if there were any blind carbon copies he may have sent them or simply told them privately. In any case, if I were on staff or a member of Taylors First Baptist Church, I would certainly want to know who the pastor is interfering with to allow correspondence from another believer who is inquiring at their own published website. I would certainly want to know who a pastor told me I could not communicate with if I were a member of his church. Are the members of Taylors First Baptist Church Pastor Frank Page's own private supply of royal jelly? Does he own their free will? Is he claiming to speak for them? Is he now their conscience? More frightening is the implication that he is acting as the Holy Spirit for his members, thereby usurping the Office of the Holy Spirit. Is this his church? His staff? Or Jesus Christ's church? The Apostle Paul even welcomed the opposition to debate, as did Apollos. But Dr. Page's idea of “Better Together” is to by all means silence the opposition and answer NONE of the legitimate concerns or appeals presented to him and make no space for them at SBC conventions and events. Give them no audience, as is most clearly about to transpire at the Florida Baptist Convention. If he is accusing me of bearing false witness against him or Rick Warren, then he must prove it. He has not done so, but, as usual with most PDC pastors, he simply retaliates and censors me. If my accusations are false, I appeal to his congregation members to confront him to document where and give specifics...unless he doesn't believe the Apostle Paul, who said you must have them if you are going to make charges.

I always hope all things...that if he or any Christian states they want to reconcile ("better together"), then I want to give them every opportunity to follow through. In this case, Dr. Page has only verified and confirmed our suspicions and accusations. His philosophy collides with the Apostle Paul's' own instructions and model of behavior regarding confronting brothers in Christ and exposing false brethren.

I am biblically commanded to only warn him twice...that is unless he repents, particularly since he professes to be a teacher [pastor] of God's Word, according his own church website. Was the Apostle Paul “attacking a believer” when he confronted Peter, Alexander the Blacksmith, Hymenaus and Philetus, and the Pharisees in Galatians? Was the Jude “attacking a believer”? Was the Apostle John “attacking a believer” in confronting Diotrephes, who was doing exactly what Rick Warren is doing? My defense and accusations are based on objective criteria of Scripture. His defense is based on his own subjective ad homimim attack on me personally. What kind of criteria is that? He is convicted by his own testimony and by what he is promoting at his own church. The Apostle Paul always preached repentance and Christ crucified in synagogues, always proselytizing...diametrically opposed to what Rick Warren did when he spoke at Synagogue 3000 and even declared to them that he was not trying to convert them. He is just trying to help the grow bigger and better synagogues...i.e. grow the false religion of Judaism. And once again what did Paul do regarding Judaizers, he condemned them in Galatians, the opposite of what Rick Warren has done. And this does not make him a false teacher that the President of the Southern Baptist Convention should not expose? You don't think the Apostle Paul would have sharply rebuked Rick Warren for this kind of public teaching? He could not have remained silent in good conscience, but Dr. Page says nothing because that would be “attacking a believer”. And if that weren't enough, Rick Warren is doing the same with Mormons and Roman Catholics.

Dr. Page remains silent about Rick Warren while Rick Warren votes for the New Ager August Turak who won the Power of Purpose Award because to speak out would be “attacking a believer”...Rick Warren has reinvited New Age sympathizer Ken Blanchard to preach at his church whom I exposed in my second book on Rick Warren and Mr. Frank Page remains silent so as to not be “attacking a believer”. Rick Warren purpose-drives them out of the church and trains 400,000 pastors globally how to do it, and this without cause or the due process of church discipline outlined in Scripture in which these brothers and sisters must be found guilty of heresy first, while Dr. Frank Page remains silent because that would be “attacking a believer”. But those who oppose Warren, however, do have just cause to remove him from the church. And as the Apostle Paul would say, "I am now therefore the enemy because I tell you the truth?" And what do you think Peter would think of all of the believers gathered a Pentecost singing a song like Jimmi Hendrix' Purple Haze, as Rick Warren led the multitudes in the stadium where he launched his Global Peace Plan? While Frank Page remains silent because that would be “attacking a believer”. Dr. Page, may remain silent, but you don't have to.

In order for the SBC Florida Conference theme to be considered anything other than a sham, Willie Rice and Dr. Frank Page, President of the Florida Baptist Convention must invite SBC victims such as Mrs. Betty Erwin or Charles Jones of Iuka Baptist Church. They need to also invite an author of an opposing view to Rick Warren's teachings, as a speaker, which to my knowledge has never happened at any SBC church in the country. I hope you will not be fooled by these apostate leaders, masquerading as servants of righteousness.

Therefore, I remind Dr. Frank Page, SBC President, Pastor Willie Rice, Pastor Mac Brunson, and Rick Warren, and will warn others about these men according to these Scriptures:

“Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there remember est that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” Matthew 5:23-24

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

“For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” Revelation 22:15

So SBC President and Pastor Frank Page can remain silent and do what he must do. But I will not be silenced, I will do what I must do. I hope and pray that you will not be afraid of these men, but rather fear the Lord, and not be silenced either, but will hold him accountable!

Sincerely in Christ,

James Sundquist

Rock Salt Publishing

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html

[Douglas]

"I'm glad that a man's commentary is there to tell us what to think about what we've read from God and the correct way to "understand" passages. Commentaries are not infaliable. They do not make dogma. In this case, you do not draw that human conclusion by reading the Greek for Hebrews 5-8.

...and, btw, apostasy is unbelief because it is treason against Christ. If someone truly believed, they would not commit apostasy.

I also site: 1 Cor 9:25-27, 2 Peter 2:20, Colossians 1:21-23, Revelation 3:2-5, 2 Peter 1:10"

Mike, none of those Scriptures teach that a Christian loses their salvation.

Apostasy
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Assurance/Apostasy/

Why should I believe your commentaries over the next persons? Pastor Bob DeWaay is a trustworthy teacher imho. There is even a link to his website from this very blog. Have a study of some of the essays and listen to some of the media that are available through the link I posted in my previous comment they will bless you.

No where, not once, is there any mention in the Bible of a "Christian" losing there salvation and being cast into the lake of fire. It does NOT happen. It CANNOT happen. Salvation is of the LORD. Forever and ever.

The doctrine of eternal security/perseverance/preservation of the Saints does not give the Saints a license to sin, it gives them hope!

God bless you Mike,

agape

Douglas

Perseverance of the Saints
by Nathan Pitchford

What God begins, he finishes

Psa 138:8 The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.
Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.
Isa 46:4 even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.
Jer 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Phi 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost

Joh 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Rom 8:28-31 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith

1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Heb 3:14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Rev 21:7-8 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
1Co 1:30-31 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain - if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith - just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
1Th 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
Heb 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
Jud 1:24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

http://www.monergism.com/perseverance_of_the_saints_by.php

[Mike Baker]

Apparantly, I did not make my point. I guess we have to argue. I hate this. I do not want to argue doctrine here.

Let us not argue the historical differences between denominations. Can we at least agree to take the Scriptures seriously enough to let them form our opinions isolated from the mumbo-jumbo of potentially false teachers? Can we follow the Biblical example that tests every teacher's commentary against what we know to be true? We start with "The Bible is always true, has no error, and does not lie" and move out.

Okay... does everyone know that there are three forms of Eternal Security? Does everyone know which version of Eternal Security Rick Warren and his supporters are pushing? Here are the three teachings. I will try to be informative and fair to create as neutral a presentation as possible:

The Reformed version says that God makes Christians and those Christians endure. The problem is that people fall away from the faith all the time. To keep God from breaking His promise, they say that the guy who did not endure must have not been a Christian to begin with. He never had the promise at all.

The Baptist teaching says that when you become a Christian, God protects your salvation even if you turn from God, deny the Holy Spirit, and fall into a life of unbridled sin. To keep God from breaking His promise, the guy who did not endure is still a Christian even though he does not act or believe like one. God holds up His end even though this child is worse than an unbeliever.

The version that I believe says that God promises to protect those who remain in the faith by hearing and following Christ (read the sheep passage we are talking about). The promise is in the present tense and offers comfort only to those who remain steadfast in the faith. If you stop hearing and stop following, the sentence structure of the verse does not include you in the promise. In this version, God always keeps His promise and protects you from external forces like temptation, suffering, people, and the devil. God will always honor that. The guy who falls away is the one who broke his promise to believe, hear, and follow.

Rick Warren supporters are using the Baptist version here. That is what is keeping Rick from "preaching against Sola Fide" in the minds of his followers.

Now, go read all these passages with an open mind and believe what they actually say about justification.

This arguement is a perfect example of why doctrinal debates are often times so futile. People refer to what people told them to believe about the Bible instead of carefully reading it for themselves using proper techniques and context.

We need to let what the Bible says form our opinion instead of letting their opinion form what the Bible says. Go read for yourself and listen to God rather than the opnions of faliable men.

Look at Rick Warran. If you just believe everything he says without testing it against the clear words of Scripture, you will be taken away into terrible error! Do not fall prey to the Rick Warrens out there. Do not even fall prey to the faithful preachers who simply mispeak or are wrong on a single issue of doctrine. Test everything against Sola Scriptura. That is the heart of the Reformation. That is the very soul of being a protestant... protesting the established error with Biblical truth!

Do not blindly believe my commentary either. I do not want you to believe my spin or any other spin. I want you to believe the truth. I want you to break the sentence down like you are in fifth grade and decide for yourself--without the help of a pro- or anti- Eternal Security pointy-head telling you what to believe. Read the Scripture, break it down like you are in grammar school, and understand what it says before you decide what God is saying.

All of the passages that have been sited so far in this thread are in the present tense. Saying that they apply to people who "believed" or "had faith once" or "used to follow" is a leap of logic that is not spoken of anywhere in the Bible.

Presupposed belief in Eternal Security makes these passages sound like they support for Eternal Security. You have to believe in Eternal Security before hand to think that this is what the passages say... or you have to be told that Eternal Security is what the passage means.

The belief that Jesus saves those who do not believe is not supported by the natrual language of the actual words on the page. The conclusion that is drawn is in opposition to the actual grammar of the sentence. You have to bend the words and read extra stuff into them instead of breaking down sentence structure and taking it at face value.

What Douglas presented is a commentary... an opinion about what it might mean. It is a belief that uses Scripture to support itself. It often "fills you in" on the stuff that Scripture isn't saying and connects dots that Scripture does not connect. What I present is an approach to reading Scripture that does not tell you the dogma before you read the passage. I am walking neutrally through the gramatical structure and letting the passage speak for itself. Once the sentence is clearly broken down, I draw a conclusion based on what the TEXT actually says. That is not commentary. That is exegesis.

Everything that Christ says about faith and belief is in the present, future, or future perfect tenses. Do not add the past tense to His words. Jesus did not speak about faith in the past tense so neither should you. Do not count on salvation through a past tense view of faith because it is never mentioned in the Bible that way. Christ says those who believe are saved. If the present tense of the word "believe" does not apply to you then that promise offers you no comfort no matter which version of Eternal Security you pick. If you "used to believe" then repent and believe! Seek the Lord while He is near!

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

My thought on this video:

This is twisting of Scripture. I recognize that Mr. Warren is preaching from the parable where the servants are entrusted with some money.

However, Mr. Warren's track record indicates that he believes that the servants of God, instead of receiving instructions directly from their Employer, are to submit themselves to the directions of a sort of middle management. After all, his PEACE website promises that THEY will find you a good mission field--not that they will assist you in the field where God has sent you. In fact, they may chide you for going without leadership!

I think he forgets that the good works of the Christian come FROM the Christian's love for God and neighbor--and therefore, by extension, they come from God. I would understand a sermon in which he exhorts the listener that works are a fruit, a form of proof of faith; a joy and a privilege, not a duty; that they are to be done not for the reward, but because they are RIGHT. However, the way he expresses it, he makes it sound like we have merit badges to earn.

As I've said about Mr. Warren in the past, he's been pastor of Saddleback Church literally almost as long as I've been alive. If he does not express the truth concisely and completely by now, then he is either incompetent at his job, or a deceiver.

Warrenites, pick your option. Liar or moron. Which is he?

[Steve P]

I love the Sola Fide controversy. Rick Warren has a lot of things right. The funny thing about this is that people are so caught up in the truth (absolute truth) of Sola Fide, that they forget its logical consequence as written in James 2. If you have faith, you WILL do works. Faith is a matter of obedience, not some esoteric concept. Quite simple, Faith produces works.

Two camps, each with errant focus. We need fasith; it saves. We need works; they prove faith, which saves. We must evaluate faith by evaluating works. Look at both, but remember that faith, a gift, saves. Warren missed it.

[Teresa]

Mrs Pilgrim said: Warrenites, pick your option. Liar or moron. Which is he?

Dear Ma'am, you make the mistake of assuming it must be one or the other.

Me thinks Warren needs to repent, go back to bible school and fall in line with the rest of the Phili church who receives wonderful kudos in Revelation 2 or 3 and start teaching his church truthful doctrine.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Well, Teresa, my point was that, after nearly 28 years of supposedly doing research upon research, studies upon studies (as any good professional should, much less a pastor), Mr. Warren should know the context of the Scriptures he cites, both here and in his various books and writings.

By that reasoning, someone who errs on the scale and frequency he does must be either incapable of understanding, or knowing full well what he is saying, and so deliberately playing his audience false.

...In light of his recent interview for WorldNetDaily, I begin to suspect firmly that it is the latter. He indicates--though does not say so--that he will say anything, whatever best pleases the listener, to "get them into Heaven". He signs his name to documents with which he does not fully agree; he apologizes, even when he knows he's not to blame, nor can he truly speak for the offending party.

I say "suspect firmly," because in the past, I was willing to accept that maybe he was a little slow, but meant well. Now, however...

[G.C.]

If you ask Rick what exactly he believes he would affirm the true substanc of Grace. Rick's problem in the video is not uncommon by some preachers. He is not rightly dividing the word and he is mixing works and grace together without explaining how essentially salvation is by grace not works. You are right,what he just preached overwelming leans towards works righteousness but I think he is just not rightly dividing the word and so he mixing two taechings in church life that need to be separated.

[Jonathan Yu]

Salvation and Justification is a 100% Free Gift from God where His Righteousness is imputed to us by our Faith in Him. That is no "test" at all.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6 in the King James Bible).

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (Romans 3:24 in the King James Bible).

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5 in the King James Bible).

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21 in the King James Bible).

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-Ephesians 2:9 in the King James Bible).

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5 in the King James Bible).

You can visit www.justbible.com for the entire Bible online.

[Escoanyelin Ortiz]

Rick warren is a Gift of God to the Church. the test he talks about is not for eternal salvation. We will all (all Christians!) have to give an account in the Judgment Seat of Christ, not for eternal salvation (because salvation is free), but discipline during the millenial kingdom. Don't misinterpret Pastor Warren! Don't quote him out of context!
Who are you to judge this servant of God? Let the Bible judge his entire message, not a few words in his message. What about Warren's good's fruits? You shall know the tree by it's fruits.
Lives have been changed! Besides, he is suffering for a loved one. Judge not if you don't know the content of the heart. Amen.

[Vernon Gray]

Hi,
I recently heard Benny Hinn say with some pride that David Wilkerson had prophecied (about/over) him. Do you know anything about this? I am curious as to what the contents of this "prophecy" was. If Benny Hinn is a man of integrity and a real man of God......I am in BIG trouble.

Thanks for reading this and I hope tou will respond.

VERNON GRAY (vernon.gray@live.co.za)

[Jonathan Yu]

Rick Warren is lying by adding self-righteousness as salvation to God's Word by which he will be rebuked as a liar as mentioned in Proverbs 30:6. Therefore, Rick Warren is accursed to Hell and the Lake of Fire because he is preaching another gospel of legalism as mentioned in Galatians 1:9.