The 'Deeds Not Creeds' Challenge - Are JW's Now Christians?

Below, we've reproduced the marketing piece the Jehovah's Witnesses put together for this year's JW District Conventions. Notice anything interesting about their messaging??

JW's are now claiming (just like every other purpose-driven/seeker-sensitive church) that Jesus will help them "improve their family life, deal with life's difficult problems, draw closer to God, oppose the devil and gain everlasting life". The JW's even have a big friendly picture of Jesus smiling at you on their flyer.

So, here's the challenge. We'd like you to answer a question. Here it is:

Since JW's are now preaching the EXACT same messages that you can hear at famous mega-churches like Saddleback, Willowcreek and Granger, shouldn't we welcome them into the 'Christian Fold' and stop treating them as cultists and embrace them as fellow Christians?

We really want to hear what you have to say on this. But,... we have one rule for those of you who want to comment... If you attend a church where the lead pastor believes in "Deeds NOT Creeds" (like Rick Warren) or your pastor openly attacks the preaching and teaching of sound doctrine (like Steven Furtick), or your church's pastor only preaches seeker-sensitive self-help sermons like the ones listed above, then you are forbidden from pointing to any doctrine or creeds as a means of distinguishing 'True Christians' from 'False Christians'. If your pastor does not value sound doctrine and creeds enough to promote them and teach them from the pulpit and you keep attending a church like that, then you haven't earned the right to use doctrine and creeds as a means of distinguishing your version of Christianity from the JW's version. In other words, we won't let you get away with being hypocritical. You can't treat doctrine and creeds with contempt one minute then use them to help you the next minute. Therefore, if you attend any church that fits the above descriptions, you will be limited to proving your points using ONLY deeds. Good luck.

Comments

[Evangelism Team]

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=33bf935e94036b41979b

[Ken J.]

Rick Warren would love this idea. Warren doesn't even care if anyone is saved. He just makes his "Purpose Driven catholics" and "Purpose Driven synagogues". Salvation means nothing to him. Will we one day see "Purpose Driven JW's"?

Probably.

[Susan Bertalotto]

No, JWs are not Christians.

In the flyer you posted, they don't even have the right Jesus (they don't anyway) - they are promoting "the christ", someone like Maitreya, someone who embodies the New Age/Occult "cosmic christ". Most likely the evangelical churches (like the ones you mentioned) are promoting the same christ.

[Scott W. Kay]

Ah, Chris, what an excellent point you make here. I noticed much of the same thing when I saw this flyer on my front door recently. There IS no real difference now in the message or approach between these groups is there? The Saddleback-Willow Creek-Etc. churches have so generalized and sterilized and pragmatized the message that it is now indistinguishable from the cults, who, while trying to pass themselves off as mainline Christians to the masses anyway, have just taken these churches ideas and run with them. Why not? It fits them just fine with no major adjustments to speak of. Self-help is just self-help, regardless of the nature of the group promoting it. Rick Warren or Anthony Robbins; Saddleback or JW's. What's the difference?

Oh, and your conditions for commenting are well-made points as well. When doctrine is ignored, and now said to be unimportant, then there remains no basis for determining what is true and what is not, and no basis for distinguishing yourself from a cult.

[Abigale]

I go to Saddleback church and it is not fair of you to limit us like that! Just because my pastor values evangelism and preaches sermons that are relevant and practical to the un-churched doesn't mean that he doesn't value doctrine. The un-churched are not interested in doctrine and creeds. Pastor Rick understands this and he's bringing thousands of people to Jesus every year! You people are nothing but a bunch of doctrinal snobs! While your teaching your pet doctrines to each other Pastor Rick is leading people to Jesus.

While you were putting this stupid challenge together thousands of people died without knowing Jesus! You doctrine Nazis should be ashamed of yourselves! Don't you want people to come to Jesus? Why do you keep putting your stupid doctrines and creeds in the way of the un-churched? You need to shut up and start blessing and serving people. If you want to learn doctrine then you can go buy a book and read it in your spare time if its that important to you.

The JW's are more Christian than you are! They love Jesus too and are out there serving Jesus every weekend by going door to door. You need to stop attacking people and serve others like we do at Saddleback and like the JW's do at their churches.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Abigale,

Ummm....thank you for that passionate and insightful comment. It is one that I will not soon forget.

I think you've proven our point.

[Ken Silva]

Abigale informs us: "I go to Saddleback church..."

Then she says: "The JW's are more Christian than you are! They love Jesus too and are out there serving Jesus every weekend by going door to door. You need to stop attacking people and serve others like we do at Saddleback and like the JW's do at their churches."

There's proof that Warren is failing in growing his flock up, which is his PRIMARY task as a pastor, in that this dear woman does not know the JW's "Jesus" is, according to the Watchtower, the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God, Michael the archangel.

Absolutely pitiful and unthinkable!

[DJackson]

Abigail you say, "The JW's are more Christian than you are! They love Jesus too and are out there serving Jesus every weekend by going door to door. You need to stop attacking people and serve others like we do at Saddleback and like the JW's do at their churches."

This definitely proves the point that you don't care about false doctrine, or even sound doctrine. You veiw doctrine as evil.

Warren brings in thousands of false converts who want their ears tickled, and you seem to be just one of those.

JW's are indeed a cult, and recognized as a cult by Christians and if you believe they are actually Christian you are totally in error and in direct contradiction to what the Bible teaches.

Abigale, I suggest you start actually reading the Bible, and what the apostle Paul has to say about doctrine, instead of just letting your ears be tickled for what you want to get out of the Bible.

Here goes:

1 Timothy 4:1-4:

"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

And Galatians 1:6-9:

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting (L)Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

1 Timothy 4:16:

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

Titus 1:9:

"He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it."

I could go on and on,

Abigail, I suggest you stop listening to Warren and START listening to God through His Word.

Christ calls Christians to warn others against false doctrine. In love and obediance, Christians are to rescue the perishing that are heading to Hell. I doubt, seriously that Warren cares that people are going to Hell, but rather that he cares that people fill his church. That's VERY heretical stuff.

The fact that you don't even know that JW's are a cult is very scary indeed, and makes me wonder even more what's being taught at Saddleback. That church is amongst one big, emergent cult, and I'm not afraid to say that.

I'd also suggest, Abigail, that you examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. www.NeedGod.com is a great place to start. If you are TRULY open minded as you propose to be, then you should not be opposed to Godly rebuke and counsel, for your very soul is on the line here, and your salvation is important, to I'm sure, everyone here.

[Bryan]

"Just because my pastor values evangelism and preaches sermons that are relevant and practical to the un-churched doesn't mean that he doesn't value doctrine."

Evangelism? As in Matthew 28 Great Commission evangelism? Because that entails making disciples and "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

"The un-churched are not interested in doctrine and creeds."

Correct. They are also not interested in ever seeking after God (Rom 3.11). Nor can they even understand spiritual things (1 Cor 2.14) including their need for a savior! Kinda takes the air out of seeker-sensitive churches when there are no seekers.

"Pastor Rick understands this and he's bringing thousands of people to Jesus every year!"

Is he bringing them to Christ? Or is he bringing them to self-centered, make your marriage, life, etc better-ness? Bringing them to Christ means showing them the depths of their depravity on the Cross, proclaiming Christ crucified as the ONLY way to salvation, and His resurrection. Remember that is the Gospel that Paul said is of "first importance" (1 Cor 15.1-4).

"You people are nothing but a bunch of doctrinal snobs! While your teaching your pet doctrines to each other Pastor Rick is leading people to Jesus."

Doctrinal snobs? Like Paul was? A sampling:
Romans 16.17, Ephesians 4.11-15, 1 Timothy 1.2-4,1 Timothy 1.8-11,1 Timothy 4.6, 1 Timothy 6.2-5, Titus 1.9, Hebrews 6.1
"Let us leave elementary doctrine..." Heb 6.1 - When will Rick warren leave elementary doctrine?

"While you were putting this stupid challenge together thousands of people died without knowing Jesus!"

And a thousand more died while you were typing that comment.

"You doctrine Nazis should be ashamed of yourselves! Don't you want people to come to Jesus? Why do you keep putting your stupid doctrines and creeds in the way of the un-churched?"

1)yes I am ashamed of myself, I'm a wretched Sinner. Praise God He took my shame and the wrath that was due to me!
2)Yes. That point is a nonsequiter. I wouldn't have done missions work in China of all places if I didn't. What does that have to do with doctrine.
3) As for doctrine and creeds, I already addressed this point above. And what about once they are saved? Make Disciples, rebuke heresy, etc. How do you do that? Right doctrine.

"You need to shut up and start blessing and serving people."
Saying shut up is a great way of blessing and serving. Thanks.

"If you want to learn doctrine then you can go buy a book and read it in your spare time if its that important to you."

It's called the Bible. It's wonderful what daily quiet times can do when you spend more time than just a cursory reading and actually dig into what things say. Romans is particularly doctrinal (vessels of wrath prepared beforehand for destruction. Whew. That's a doctrinal statment right there. You can find it in Romans 9). Oh you meant a different book.

"The JW's are more Christian than you are! They love Jesus too and are out there serving Jesus every weekend by going door to door."

Oh! They finally agreed to justification by faith alone through Christ alone? Praise God! Oh wait... no they haven't. They are following a FALSE Gospel. By definition they cannot be more Christian than we are.

"You need to stop attacking people and serve others like we do at Saddleback and like the JW's do at their churches."

Or I can serve people like Christ, hanging out with the sinners, quoting the Word of God (Romans 10) so that by hearing they can come to faith, and faith in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, realizing that no one can or does seek God, that it takes a work of the Holy Spirit through the proclamation of the whole Gospel. I'll take my way thanks.

[JamesoftheNorthwest]

I think the problem arises when people who ascribe to "deeds not creeds" somehow have come to believe that it is an either/or...as if the two were mutually exclusive or that one is so much more important than the other that the other doesn't matter at all.

Precarious ground to stand on.

[merry]

"Why do you keep putting your stupid doctrines and creeds in the way of the un-churched?" Ummm, whoa, hold on honey! Isn't getting doctrine and creed out to the un-churched exactly what we want to do? Do you not believe that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that Jesus the Son came to die for our sins and rose again on the third day? Abigale, is that not at the very heart of the doctrines and creeds of Christianity? I would be very careful in calling that stupid. Why would we not want to get this message out to the un-churched? Why does "doctrine" seem to be such a dirty word? If this is what Rick Warren is teaching, that doctrines and creeds are getting in the way, then, well, I don't even know what to say except that my heart breaks just to hear about it.

[Truman]

Rick Warren's "bringing people to Jesus" ? WOW! Has anyone told the Holy Spirit?

I saw Bible Answer Man Hank Hanegraaff last night in St. Louis and he was passionate that Christians truly read AND understand scripture for all that it's worth. It's obvious that we "doctrine Nazis" are in the minority since feel-good megachurches like Warren's don't preach doctirne and creeds (hey, you can learn it if you want to, but it's not required). But if you ever want to know why Christianity is in such trouble in America today, look no further than the people who are teaching the Abigails to ignore solid doctrine.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Abigale,

Your comment has me spinning in so many directions that I had to come back and ask a question.

You blasted us for 'attacking people' but as I read and re-read your comment I can't help but feel like you are being attacking.

Calling us 'doctrinal snobs' and 'doctrinal nazis' and saying that JW's are 'more Christian than we are' is an attack.

Why is it okay for you to personally attack us but challenging your pastor and his methods is not okay.

I think you're being hypocritical. Don't you?

[Trent Kastman]

This isn't surprising. For a long time, Mormons have been saying that they're Christians, too. In fact, I don't know if they still do it, but for a while, they advertised free Bibles or videos on television. What they didn't tell you is that after you asked for one, a missionary would contact you.

[Julie]

Is that a painting of Jesus or a soap opera star?

[Steve]

Oh those nutty JWs. Always portraying Jesus as a well scrubbed and barbered Beverly Hills lawyer.

I'm no deeds above creeds pusher. I am so grateful to the Lord for introducing me to the work of Walter Martin when I was 15. A steady ingestion of his messages really pounded home the importance of doctrine.

The JWs and Mormons teach a false gospel. Nuff said.

[thomas]

re: "Is that a painting of Jesus or a soap opera star?"

Methinks it is an old picture of one of the BeeGees. That might go back a bit for some but that's what I thought of right away. Although the strong man Jesus of an earlier post(er) sure seemed buff.

Since I'm a great sinner I need a great Christ. Everything else follows after that one great doctrine; which then brings in so much more (applicable, life changing and life satisfying) doctrine.

As a pastor I often wonder when the word 'doctrine' became a four letter word. Did I miss that class in seminary?

thomas

[Abigale]

I stand by every word that I said. I am sick of sites like this and Slice making it sound like churches like Saddleback are less Christian just because they are reaching out to the un-churched in a relevant way.

You go ahead and do church your way with all your creeds and doctrines and we'll keep doing church the way we're doing it. Your churches will continue to shrink while ours keeps growing and growing. The reason it is growing is because God is blessing Pastor Rick. People's lives are being changed and transformed at Saddleback and rather than rejoice with us you are tearing us down because we don't teach your favorite pet doctrines. We've proven that you don't need doctrine to change lives. What is needed are people who are willing to get off their lazy butts and serve people.

do you think that the doctrine of the imacualate incarnal transubstantial atonement thingy is going to make a difference in anyone's life? Of course it's not!

[Lisa]

Abigale-

As some one who grew up JW, I can tell you these facts:

JW's deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Did you see any mention of JESUS Christ on that pamphlet or just "The Christ"?

JW's do NOT believe in justification by faith or in salvation by Grace alone. They are very much works driven and teach that your salvation can be lost at anytime by your works or lact of works (going door-to-door). They don't really live life because they are so afraid of making mistakes that risk their salvation. They think that if they work hard enough, they'll inherit a paradise earth.

They go door-to-door handing out their own literature, NOT the Holy Bible or even their messed up version of the Holy Bible. Rick Warren's missionaries hand out copies of "PDL".

I could go on and on, because the similarities are eerie and for me, a child of JW's, easily recognizable.

Oh, and JW's deny the deity of the Holy Spirit and His work in our world today. Hon, Rick Warren doesn't "save" people, the Holy Spirit does. That's assuming that all the billions that RW and his false gospel PDL book have actually helped bring people to JESUS Christ, not just "The Christ".

Peace be to you. JW's have seen their numbers fall so much over the past 20 years, the have resorted to changing what they print in order to bulk up their numbers and hide the "falling away" that is happening right now.

[DJackson]

Actually it's sites like this that help Christians to spot heresy and false doctrines and corruption in churches. Just because a church is large and "growing" doesn't make it right or doctrinally sound, which is what the Bible teaches.

1 Timothy 6:3, 2 Timothy 4:3, Titus 1:9, Titus 2:1 all deal with how we are to deal with doctrine, which is VERY important. If one holds to sound doctrine, they will also be in obedience with the command by Jesus to love. It is therefore that love which would motivate a believer to reach out to the unsaved with the pure and un-adulterated Gospel.

The man-centered gospel that "God has a wonderful plan for your life" has no place in the church.

"Get your best life now" and "The Purpose driven church" are purely man-centered.

It's time to reach the lost for the sake of Christ and stop fixing our gaze upon pastors that tickle our ears.

[thomas]

Abigaile

It is because there was this incarnation, this virgin birth, this substitutionary atonement 'thingy' that being a Christian is worthwhile. It is what lies at the heart of everything splendid about the Christian faith. Anything else arises out of that great doctrine of the glorious incarnation of Jesus Christ. I'm a great sinner and need a great Christ.

And all of that is absolutely relevant - demolishing anything that would rise up against it. The greatest good, the most splendid comfort for any believer is this Christ as presented in the Word. Anything less than the Christ of the Word is not worth preaching or teaching.

All of which is to say that the fundamentals of the Christian faith are worth knowing and living in (as in camping in them, savoring them) and living them out (as in being living letters of Christ to the world around us). If you want to present Christ as Savior you need to address the question of 'what.' He is Savior of 'what?' Marriage? Health? To begin there is to fail to do justice to Christ. Sure, your neighbor might begin there. You need to bring him/her from that to Christ.

What wrecks marriage? Sin and sinful conduct. What remedy is there? Christ.
What wrecks health? Sin and its consequences. What remedy is there? Christ.

Does Christ rescue these? Does Christ restore these? Absolutely; but in His fashion and for His glory. In order to see this Christ as crucified for our own sin, He must be known, preached, embraced, loved, savored and all these entire. We will never come to the end of savoring such a Christ, such a Savior, such a Lord. We commemorate His death and resurrection at the table of the Lord's Supper, in the pure preaching of the Word. We pray for His grace in all of life. And on it goes.

Doctrine is unavoidable. Everyone has it. You do too. What is important is whether the doctrine is worth having or not. Methinks that there is a problem when doctrine is set aside as unhelpful for reaching the lost. My question would be: what are you reaching them with? Tossing out doctrine to serve others better fails to do justice to the cross of Christ.

All of which is to say this: the foundation needs to be sure: Jesus Christ died to save sinners. My neighbor needs to know that; and guess what. By nature he doesn't want that. But by grace he can come to see such a Christ as sufficient for all his life.

What a great Christ!
thomas

[fourpointer]

You go ahead and do church your way with all your creeds and doctrines and we'll keep doing church the way we're doing it.

And you will keep leading people astray, and they won't know one end of the Bible from the other.

Your churches will continue to shrink while ours keeps growing and growing.

Then we truly are in the last days. More and more people are looking at church as a sort of self-help, Dr. Phil/Oprah place to get together, throw around a few verses that make us feel all mushy and squishy inside, and not know Jesus as more than a sort of Divine Spiritualist.

The reason it is growing is because God is blessing Pastor Rick.

I've heard this argument before, except instead of "Pastor Rick" it was "Pastor Benny (Hinn)", or "Brother Creflo ($$$Dollar$$$)", or "Doctor (Fred KC) Price".

We've proven that you don't need doctrine to change lives. What is needed are people who are willing to get off their lazy butts and serve people.

There are many people who "serve others", and yet they don't know the Lord.

Abigale, you demonstrated the reason we are so determined that sound doctrine needs to be taught: by calling JW's "Christians". In fact, JW's do not consider themselves to be "Christians." They are lost, headed for Hell, and because Pastor Rick doesn't want to hurt their feelings, he's not going to tell them the truth, and he's going to allow them to go to eternal destruction. Does that sound like a pastor you want to sit under? Doesn't the book of James say that if one knows to do good (telling JW's the truth) and doesn't do it (like your pastor), that it is a sin?

And that is why we are so "hung up" on doctrines and creeds.

[merry]

Abigale, I looked up a couple of words in the dictionary. They turned out to be pretty simple.

Doctrine--Teaching, instruction. Something that is taught. A position in a system of belief.

Creed--A brief formula of religious belief. A set of fundamental beliefs.

I've learned recently that you can serve people in a lot of places. You can serve in homeless shelters, nursing homes, orphanages. And yes, you can serve in a church, too. But if you don't know what you believe, it means nothing. Nothing. Some of the basic doctrines (teachings) of Christianity are that salvation is a free gift. Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead. God exists in the trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). The Bible is the inspired word of God. These doctrines (teachings) are some of the fundamental beliefs that every Christian should agree on. These doctrines and creeds (teachings and beliefs) cannot be thrown out. The teachings and beliefs in the Bible can make a HUGE difference in one's life.

Abigale, I'm curious to know how much of the Bible you've read? (And reading random verses from The Purpose Driven Life doesn't count; I mean the actual Bible here.) If you haven't read very much, I would suggest reading through the Gospel of John to start out with. It is one of the simplest gospels to understand and yet an amazingly powerful book of the Bible. It won't take long to read, I promise.

I am writing this message entirely out of love; I just honestly want you to understand what Christianity really means and the vital importance of the teachings in the Bible. Please take time to read this message; I really do care about you!

[John Draper]

Brother Chris,
I go to Saddleback as well. Alot of people go to Saddleback and they are clearly at various stages of their Christian walk and understanding of their faith.

I think most of us who have been around Saddleback for a while understand the difference between historic Christianity and the teachings of the JWs.

Let me see if I can take a run at your challenge. To begin with, if you go back to the Pew Forum interview, you never see the phrase "deeds, not creeds". Now I might be nit-picking at tad at this point, but I think it's important for the sake of understanding context. What Rick did say was this:

"You know, 500 years ago, the first Reformation with Luther and then Calvin, was about beliefs. I think a new reformation is going to be about behavior. The first Reformation was about creeds; I think this one will be about deeds. I think the first one was about what the church believes; I think this one will be about what the church does."

Rick is not implying here that "creeds" are unimportant, what he is suggesting is that believers everywhere can cooperate in reaching a lost world for Christ, spiritually and physically in accordance with James 2:14-17, regardless of doctrinal differences over things like whether or not baptism is sacramental or just an ordinance, pre-trib vs. post trib, style of ecclesiology, etc.

In fact, a little later on, he clarifies his point. When asked whether or not he thinks doctrine is important, he affirms that it is by quoting Augustine: "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity."

What are the "essentials" that Saddleback believes in. Well, it's our belief statement that you can find and read for yourself at www.saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html.

You are absolutely right to point out that I can't explain my faith without referencing what I believe in. That said, nobody at Saddleback, including Rick Warren, is suggesting that you can.

Peace and BTW, for what it's worth, I don't think you are a "doctrinal Nazi"

[Jim from OldTruth.com]

Wow! This post was such an excellent way of communicating the problem at hand. I seem to remember a White Horse Inn episode in which they were making a similar case with the Mormons who often talk about "the burning in the bosom" when Jesus entered their heart. Wrong Jesus though. Without 'creeds' and a truly historical basis for our belief, we are just another meaningless religion. The pastors mentioned above need to stop preaching a Therapeutic Gospel, and stop belittling the Christians who value those things. Thank you so much Chris for your faithfulness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and our Lord.

[Ken J.]

Despite John Draper's clear move for "peace", I don't think it's quite this easy. One Saddleback devotee comes first and clearly has an unbiblical view on what a Christian even is. Is that the fruit of Rick Warren's "ministry"? I believe it is, having been at Saddleback myself for some time.

But what I hear from John is also similar to what I heard in my time at Saddleback. Along the lines of, well, we're all at different places. Well, if someone is clearly outside of Christianity, that doesn't put them at a "different place". That puts them outside of God's house. And then the whole thing of well, Rick Warren has a doctrinal statement on his website. Of course as we pointed out in another thread, doctrinal statments mean nothing. The worst heresy-laden "God wants you financially wealthy" preachers have correct doctrinal statements on their websites, so that means nothing. It's what they teach when their lips move that matters.

I've seen it before, and just in my opinion, as someone that has also been at Saddleback before for some time, this isn't good enough.

As I brought up at the top of this thread, Rick Warren does have his "Purpose Driven catholics" (extremely questionable doctrinally) and his "Purpose Driven" teaching for synagogues, where he didn't even bring up the Gospel to those Jewish people. That's too much for me, and it's indefensible. I've heard the excuses as John is sharing, and while I appreciate him not having the venom of the other Saddleback devotee, yet he's still defending what I do believe to be indefensible.

[Kevin James]

My wife and I spent almost two years at Saddleback and we left because we were not being fed. It was very frustrating. When Pastor Rick would preach he would always preach on some practical topic but the scripture he used was always taken from some bizarre translations and they were never in context. I always felt like he was just trying to make the Bible fit whatever topic he felt like preaching on that day. I always liked it when Pastor Rick was out of town and one of the other pastors would preach because they at least gave us a little more meat.

My small group study was a complete joke! The couple that lead our group was fairly new to the church and they had no clue what they were talking about. It was more of a social time than a study time and when we did get around to actually opening our Bibles the conversation usually degenerated to "What do you feel this verse is saying to you?" That was an utter waste of time.

My wife and I felt like we were on a spiritual starvation diet while we at Saddleback. Finding a good biblical meal was next to impossible. We're now at Rock Harbor. Its a good church but we still feel like we could do better. Does anyone have any suggestions for a solid Bible based church in South Orange County? We're open to just about any church that isn't purpose-driven.

[Evangelism Team]

Kevin,
Check out www.9marks.org for some great churches.

[DJackson]

Kevin James, I don't know if this will help. My wife and I had been on a long 4-year journey looking for a Bible believing church that didn't compromise the Bible. We finally found one. And one indeeed! The preaching and teaching is long and hard, there is no "tickling of the ears." They are ON FIRE for reaching the lost, and Steve Sanchez takes a 25-28 member team to Huntington Beach to witness next to Ray Comfort. They use The Way of the Master principles when reaching the lost. There is no complacency in this regard. http://www.hopechapel.org/ is the church and Steve Sanchez is the one you can contact - http://www.hopechapel.org/evangelism.html

My wife and I have finally found a church that not only is sound in doctrine, but also their number 1 focus is evangelism. Plus they have an awesome worship service that puts the focus on God and not on men. Ministries abound in this church, and so does servanthood. And you are being fed a deep spiritual meal that is not compromising. In fact Steve Sanchez will be preaching on the "Fear of God" this weekend.

My wife and I are part of the Way of the Master ministry.

[Jason]

Abigale,

"imacualate incarnal transubstantial atonement thingy"

I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. One thing is certain, they sure ain't teaching you Christian doctrine at Saddleback.

[Chris]

This posting by Leaven is right on. However, I believe that Abigail is not from Saddleback but someone willing to get us fuming. Has anyone else discerned this?

[JohnD]

Ken J,
Is Abigale "outside of Christianity" because she doesn't understand why JWs are not Christians? I don't think so. If Abigale has put her faith and trust in Jesus as her Lord and Savior, then according to my Bible, she is saved (Romans 10:9,10).

[Mike Sheeran]

I got a copy of this flyer left on my door as well. Upon seeing it I wondered if this represented a change of heart among JW's.
It didn't take too long to get the answer. That night my wife and I went out to dinner and we had a group of them sitting next to us, having just come from their convention and were "fired up". I asked them about the flyer and if they really meant it when they said, "Follow the Christ". They replied that they did. I then asked them, "Who is the Christ"? They listed such characteristics as, "Firstborn of the dead", etc. I next asked them if Christ was the Son of God. They emphatically declared, "No". I then asked them how they could follow Christ when they didn't even know Who He is. They told me that I needed to take that up with a group closer to my area which spoke better English.

These people are just using Christ as a marketing tool. They want us to think they are following Christ but the leopard doesn't really change his spots. I urged them to seek the Christ of the Bible, not their New World version. I doubt if they listened.
We need to pray for these people, many of whom are misguided into a false sense of security that they will be among 144 thousand saved. When each of them stands before God they won't be able to go back to their "Kingdom Hall" for the answers.

[Bryan]

"I stand by every word that I said."

Notice, that most of us here have utilized scripture to defend our position. You can stand by what YOU say if you want, we'll keep standing on the Word of God.

"You go ahead and do church your way with all your creeds and doctrines and we'll keep doing church the way we're doing it. Your churches will continue to shrink while ours keeps growing and growing."

Actually, the number 1 and 2 churches for growth last year were reformed. (I remember seeing it on Justin Taylor's blog, if someone knows the link please feel free to post it).

"The reason it is growing is because God is blessing Pastor Rick. People's lives are being changed and transformed at Saddleback and rather than rejoice with us you are tearing us down because we don't teach your favorite pet doctrines. We've proven that you don't need doctrine to change lives. What is needed are people who are willing to get off their lazy butts and serve people."

Ad Hom. A method Jesus would use.

"do you think that the doctrine of the imacualate incarnal transubstantial atonement thingy is going to make a difference in anyone's life? Of course it's not!"

Of course it is! The atonement is a doctrine that changed the world I would say. As did the incarnation. Without them we'd all be left in our sins and facing the wrath of God, which we deserve due to oursinfulness (another doctrine).

[Robert M. Warren]

Chris:

I had similar thoughts...methinks Abigale is pulling our legs...yanking our chains...way too much of a caricature feel to it.

[Kyle from GodsKingdomNow.com]

Abigale, I want to try to show you why we seem so passionate about "doctrine"

Do you believe in the Bible? well that's theology.
Do you say that Jesus is Lord? Or that Jesus saved you? well that's theology or doctrine too.

Any statement of faith is a statement of doctrine, that's why we want to have CORRECT doctrine, doctrine that is found in the Bible.

If someone has incorrect doctrine on something that is essential to the Christian faith, such as the Person of Christ, or the one God we serve, then that person is not of the faith, that person is not a Christian.
That's why it's so important to teach the truth.. you think the word "doctrine" is evil, but it's only a label for beliefs such as Jesus is Lord or God is one.

[Andy Prosseda]

It would seem to me that Abigale is trying to say that her church's bigger numbers and popularity are defining charactoristics of something truly good happening. So the question we need to answer is this: Are the methods employed to get 'conversions' important, and do those numbers indicate a positive increase in the Kingdom of God?
Well, we actually don't have to answer that question, because it's already been answered. What we have today is almost a carbon copy of what went on with Asahel Nettleton and Charles Finney in the early 19th century. If you read about it you'll see that Finney's disdain for doctrine, and supposed 'leading people to Jesus' not only didn't stand the test of time, but actually did great harm to the church. A great article about Nettleton can be found at http://www.ccwonline.org/anettel.html

[Julie]

It is clear that Abigail does not know JW's doctrine. She is coming from the point that she sees them as good people. JWs are good people, though they are not Christians. I was raised as a JW until age 17 before I gave my life to Christ.

As a Christian it is not her responsibility to know what everyone believes and neither is it Rick Warren's job to teach all religious beliefs to her.

Matt. 24:10-12, in the KJV reads, "Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another....and because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

The greek word for offend in Matt. 24:10-12 is "skandalizo" from which our english word scandal was taken from. Referring to the Strong's Concordance, the word means, scandalize, to entrap, trip up, fig. stumble or entice to in, apostasy or displeasure; -(make to) offend.

Wake UP! You are dividing the church. Causing scandal, causing division, causing and feeding anger and division.

There is a way to deal with issues in love. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love God first and your brother second. If you follow these two commandments you will fulfill all the law.

Jesus also prayed that we be one as He and the Father are one. This site does not promote love and oneness.

This website and your sister website, slice, is only causing division. I believe Jesus called the Pharisees vipers! Snakes waiting to strike. That's what I see going on here!

Get right and repent and learn how to deal with things in the Body of Christ the right way, in love. Judge your motives and your hearts before you stand before Christ with much blood on your hands.

This kind of thing is what destroys. A kingdom divided shall fall. This kind of site does not promote unity in the body of Christ, it divides! Jesus will judge each person who harms his sheep. He said it is better that a millstone be tied around your neck and that you be thrown into the sea than to hurt one of His little ones.

Repent, lest judgement fall on you swiftly!

[pastor frank]

Abigale is confused. Like many believers she doesn't know what "doctrine" is. "Doctrine" simply means teaching. Rick Warren teaches "doctrine" every week from the pulpit as does every pastor...doctrine is simple "teachings." The key point isn't doctrine or no doctrine....but rather Biblical doctrine vs false doctrine.

[profweather]

From John..."You know, 500 years ago, the first Reformation with Luther and then Calvin, was about beliefs. I think a new reformation is going to be about behavior. The first Reformation was about creeds; I think this one will be about deeds. I think the first one was about what the church believes; I think this one will be about what the church does."

I think this is the point entirely. The Reformation "about beliefs" was BECAUSE of the chuch had departed into "behavior, deeds, and what the church does". So if there will ever be another Reformation it will not be TO "behavior, deeds, and what the church does" but God's Spirit returning us FROM those things back to the old truths.

[Peter Hamm]

Deeds and creeds.

Gotta have 'em both. James makes that perfectly clear. The genius of the &! I want to say that I have heard plenty of "creeds not deeds" folks also. The Bible has harsh words for them. Check out Matthew 25.

Someone wrote [One Saddleback devotee comes first and clearly has an unbiblical view on what a Christian even is. Is that the fruit of Rick Warren's "ministry"?] I wouldn't want to have any ministry judged by someone who doesn't have it all together yet. Then every one of our churches are no good.

[Del]

Wow, by the time I got done reading the previous comments, I had forgotten what the original blog post was about!! Very, um, interesting.

By the way, it is exactly correct to deduce that if the focus of a church is self-betterment and life-enhancement, it has no way of differencing itself from a cult. Even the JW's and Mormons will try to say they believe the same "basic" creed as fundamental Christians. It isn't until you get down to their "pet" doctrines of Jesus Christ deity and atonement "thingy" that you realize how off kilter they are.

When you get down to the fact that Rick Warren probably taught the JW's to use this marketing; he has been speaking in Mormon and Catholic services lately; and that he doesn't condider any group to be a "church" unless they are following his 5-purpose plan, you see the cultishness of it all.

http://rickwarren.typepad.com/rick_warren/2007/05/seven_myths_abo.html#more

http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/05/rick_warren_any.html

[Ken J.]

JohnD wrote: "Is Abigale "outside of Christianity" because she doesn't understand why JWs are not Christians? I don't think so. If Abigale has put her faith and trust in Jesus as her Lord and Savior, then according to my Bible, she is saved (Romans 10:9,10)."

I'm not giving her that much credit (if she's even for real, as some have pointed out). I've been to Saddleback and talked to people. Even if she is fake and just a joke, yet the joke is based upon reality. Most of the people I spoke with didn't understand what saved them. They didn't know that Jesus is salvation. Instead they were looking for their "purpose" in life.

So no, whether Abigail is real or not, her statements show someone that doesn't understand the Gospel. I won't defend her if we don't even know what she believes (other than Saddleback is salvation and JW's are also saved).

[Scotty]

Me thinks ya'll need to hone up your discernment skills a bit. You've been duped! Abigail is no more a Saddlebacker than I am or even Ken Silva is. I don't agree with a lot of Rick Warren teaches either but, Abigail was put here just to stir up controversy. I admit, I'm not the brightest bulb in a package of six light bulbs but this one was so easy to spot, a ten year old would have been able to spot it!!

Rick Warren does NOT think that Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian!! Trust me. As much as ya'll like to believe it!

[Bob]

I am a "Doctrine Nazi" who has a beloved family member trapped in the Witnesses...well on their way to becoming an Elder. I am also a "Resister", a "pillar that holds things up", who was invited out the door of my church last year because of my questions regarding PDL and its influence on what was once a sound church.

One cannot follow the folly of the PDL movement in its various shades and trappings and not conclude that the Jehovah's Witnesses (I find JW repugnant, it is used too often as an epithet) easily fit into the seeker friendly mode of operation.

My wife and I were invited to a District Convention of theirs. It was a smoothly run, well packaged, highly organized (1500 people were served a very good lunch in less than 30 minutes) affair. Their baptisms were respectful, reverent celebrations with family and friends. The "talks" were punctual, you could have set a watch to the whole affair. Every publication and book offered was "free" though we knew full well our sponsors would cover the expense quietly on their own. When we ran into co-workers who were Witnesses and who knew our Biblical stand, we were greeted with genuine tears of joy as though we were long lost family coming home. When a crisis arose that had our sponsors leaving us without a ride back home, they quickly found a willing couple who would make the 1 1/2 hour drive in their stead, no questions, no complaints.

If we were not there at the Lord's leading, if we did not have the Holy Spirit guiding us, if we were not solidly grounded in the Word of God, IF WE WERE THERE AS BIBLE TOTING PUNKS LOOKING TO JUMP JWs, we would have easily fallen into the trap---the same trap found in every PDL seeker friendly church growth emergent wolf pack out there.

If Rick Warren cannot take a proper, pastoral, Biblical stand concerning Judaism and Catholicism on Larry King Live, he surrenders the right and authority to take a stand against the Jehovah's Witnesses should they choose to wear his sheep suit. His teachings fit full well into their mold and they are more than happy to use it to their advantage.

[Fred]

Abigail,

I understand your thought. The problem is exactly what you said. The unchurched do not want doctrine and could care less. The problem is that doctrine is creed and creed is "belief stated". "I believe" is a doctrinal statement. The unchurched do not believe, so they need to hear what we believe and why {doctrine}. This is called the Gospel. Abby, you can not separate the two. To do so is to start with a faulty premise. Can God save even through this or in spite of it? Yes, but we are commanded by God to give the whole counsel {doctrine} of God. This is the means in which God uses{ordained} to bring sinners to repentence and salvation. He did not ordain meeting felt needs, etc to bring them to repentance. We live in a society that demands that their "felt needs" be met. To do so , I believe , only hinders or impedes the work of the Spirit, though He is able to overcome whatever obstacles we put up. This does not however , absolve us from or allow us to impede without responsibility. We must be soooo careful not to add to God's work. If we do what is commanded He will do a powerful work. Our job is to preach the gospel {doctrine} and nothing else. Yes we love and help with true needs, but true needs are not "felt needs". What seems right to man is not always what is right with God. Right intent does not always translate into right action. Wisdom is needed, not schemes and dreams{vision} of man. God Bless you Abigail.

[Y J]

Chris & Robert,

Very glad you guys pointed this out. Especially after the second post I was smelling a fake. Glad I wasn't the only one.

[AnnaJackson]

I've been saying for quite a while now that we need to stop calling these people the "emergent church" -- they need to be labeled the "emergent cult."

[asuzette]

Wow! I can't help but think of how many more claim to be 'better Christians' who aren't even GENUINE Christians! This is much like the Pilgrim's Progress character 'Miss Busywork. Endlessly busy busy busy 'doing' and yet never coming to the saving knowledge of God! We who would be truly His need to take much time to sit at Jesus' feet as Mary did and discover we can never know Him enough! The Lord even took time to pray (for hours and practically all nightlong)! Read the scriptures: "She had a sister called Mary, who was seated at the Lord's feet, listening to His word. But Martha was distracted with all her preparations; and she came up to Him and said, "Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to do all the serving alone? Then tell her to help me."

But the Lord answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things;
but only ONE thing is necessary, and Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her."
Luke 10:39-42

[Lygia]

Abigail, please do not make fun of the word atonement, this is central to our Christian faith and it was very costly to Jesus.
Doctrines such as this are absolutely important because it is necessary to know what one believes and why. Christianity is not a bunch of lovely thoughts or poetry or good feelings towards others, even if it should produce those feelings. Christianity is based if facts, the virginal birth, the death of Jesus on the cross, the Holy Spirit, the resurrection of Jesus, etc. They are the doctrines we believe and without them we would have a free for all, where heresy would be rampant. To be a Christian is more than to be successful,interested in others, helpful,free from financial worries,and so on. It is much, much more. To be a Christian is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and in all the Bible says about Him,and to let Him live His life in you.To know what the Bible says we need to know doctrine. They are not 'pet doctrines' or 'stupid doctrines', like you said, they are the basis of our faith. I only can think that you are either very young, very young in the faith or not a Christian at all, but only you will know which.