A Great Example of Emerging Confusion

Watch this video about Solomon's Porch and you'll experience Emerging Confusion for yourself. This is not Christianity. This is spiritual goblidy gook.

Here are some great quotes...

"There's no like ummm like statement of belief at this church or statement of faith there's not like a set in stone theological writing that everyone in this church has to adhere to ummm because everyone does have different ideas and those ideas are important and valued..."

"Let's do communion like a house party."

"If you don't have a pot to piss in and you still have a friend to help you to like you know like help you out that's what's important."

"I see the Bible changing. I don't see it as stagnant and so for us as a community of Christians to say 'We need to believe this one thing and hold it tightly and make sure that it is never questioned'...That's a real waste of energy with all the things we could be doing in the world."

Comments

[JP of RN]

I saw this video several months ago and just shook my head in disbelief. I must say my favorite part was equating Communion with a House Party. I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

JP of RN

[speaker]

This church is simply the product of a wealthy, satisfied society gone wild with the humanistic message of tolerance. Their "lord" is their own fascination with themselves. Mind the pastor's final words - something to the effect that he doesn't want to disturb somebody with a message that they don't want to be disturbed with (it's called "fear of men" in the Bible). Good way to let people go to hell undestrubed.

[Jerry Hillyer]

Am I alone in thinking this isn't really Christianity?

If Jesus were walking around here today, I think his sole focus would be the same as His sole focus then: The cross. It is there he dealt with all that other stuff that the young lady is so concerned about. She obviously has no concept of sin. But should any of us be shocked?

Are you sure this video is real? And to think there are people who worry about Harry Potter having an undo influence on Christians.

[shma]

Can we say 60's hippy thinking with Jesus tacked onto it so they can be tax exempt. If you check back with what people were saying then it's not much different.

[Mrs. Jake]

Wow, lots of really cool facial hair. But seriously, this looks a hookey-pook mish-moshed bunch of potheads "exploring" spirituality, and they've come across (what they're calling) Christianity and they're giving it a go, seeing if it works for them. If not, they've got enough other religions cooking, and they're all OK, aren't they?

I'm so ashamed that this is happening in my city.

[Rita M.]

I had seen this video before...wow, what a confused group of people.

[Coram Deo]

Welcome to Laodicea!

If the group of apostates I witnessed in that video clip had been found on the original Solomon's Porch vomiting that sort of heresy they would have been stoned to death on the spot.

[francesca]

:::Can we say 60's hippy thinking with Jesus tacked onto it so they can be tax exempt. If you check back with what people were saying then it's not much different:::::
Posted by: shma | August 08, 2007 at 05:14 PM

:::I just wanted to second this comment by shma. I have, for a long time, realized that we are NEVER going to get rid of the 60s thinking in my lifetime unless the Lord comes back first. This so-called thinking is behind much of what is wrong in this country, not only in Christianity, IMO. ::::

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

I like the first quote. It sums up just how the Emergent Conversation is just like kindergarten:

"Let's write down all the things on the board that we think are important about how we do religion! Billy?"
"Music!"
"Good, Billy! Susie?"
"Singing!"
"Very good, Susie. How about you, Joey?"
"All the naked ladies around the altar dancing."
"Ummm...Okay! 'Naked...ladies...' Marcia...?"

Well, if ALL these "different ideas" are "important and valued," can you legitimately leave out the temple prostitutes?

[Doug]

Great find Chris.
I am sure the people of Solomon's Porch will love to hear how confused and goblidy gooked we are.
Keep up the good work.

[Mrs. Jake]

I repent of my previous post. It was very unloving. I need to be praying for a heart change for myself, and for these people to be led into Truth, rather than pointing out the speck in their eye when I have a plank in my own. Peace out and good night!

[Zack]

"I have no agenda to go around and convince people of things they don't want to be convinced of..."

In other words, you don't want to actually teach the Bible, you just want to tickle the itching ears of your "congregation"...

[Ken Silva]

You hit the Emergent rebellion against the Bible dead on target Zack!

[Vern Hyndman]

So how irritated are you all at JESUS having the first communion in a dinner / party format?

There is no shortage of "teaching the Bible" amongst the folks I've met, they're just leaving the bulldozing tactics to y'all. They teach the Bible, but stop short of using at as a tool to bludgeon.

This entire thread WREAKS of fear.

This has ZERO to do with 60's thinking.

"Well, if ALL these "different ideas" are "important and valued," can you legitimately leave out the temple prostitutes?"

Interestingly they DID leave out the naked ladies and temple prostitues... well, not exactly... they probably would invite them in and invite them into the truth of life and life more abundantly. What would YOU do... make snide remarks about their sexy clothes? Exclude them until they healed enough to put them away?

Thay ALSO left out the flame throwers for others who disagreed with them... seems like y'all found the ones they left.

Honestly, is this the best y'all can do? Is this the love of Jesus?

[john]

This mess is the child of and result of far too much hypocrisy that has went on in the mainline Churches. the mainline churches although they had good "doctrine", had good "Belief" Statements and on the surface held to the fundamentals of faith, they did not adhere to the spirit of the word in their hearts! They sold their souls to a political and corporate ideology and here is the child of that unholy union!

Look now and weep at the result of your hypocrisy

[Paul Carley]

What a mess, surely someone there has read 1 Corinthians eleven, where the concept of a house party as communion is the problem Paul is correcting.

The guy who said "we don't want to disturb people" must never have read the book of Acts. They should just admit that what they want is a nice place to hang out and do art and some touchy feely stuff, and not call themselves a church. Then they would be truly un-disturbing, and might just stumble on the truth, that nothing outside of Christ can fulfill the needs of a human heart.

[Cliff in WI]

This sounds like a public school.

[Mrs. Jake]

With all due respect, Vern, this thread does not reek of fear. The fruit of this apostasy will evidence its source. And treating the commemoration of our Lord's last supper before He was put to death as a "house party" is outright disrespectful, if not blasphemous.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

And yet another similarity between the Emergent types and kindergarten is a failure to read an entire statement and respond to a part of it in context.

Mr. Hyndman, if you'd BOTHERED to read the passage that went before the statement you quoted, you would understand that I was referring to the use of temple prostitutes in a "Christian" service--and how "different opinions" being "important and valued" without some reference to God's opinions MUST include prostitution as a "sacrament."

Of course, asking an Emergent for "thought" is like asking my cat to change the baby. Just not equipped for it.

Try reading what you respond to first, SIR. You'll find you'd be a lot more effective that way, and you'd also look less ignorant and ridiculous.

[Cliff in WI]

Clarification: The comments made in the video reflect a public school mentality.

I get what the emerging crowd is looking at when they see the Biblical point of view. We are seen as hardliners (see Mr. Hyndman's reaction above), unloving and unapproachable. I admit that I am guilty of this, being unloving and self righteous in my approach. I continue in dependence upon Jesus, His truth and His mercy, being corrected and being correctible. Using the Bible as a bludgeon, and screaming scripture is not what I call evangelism. Withholding the FULL gospel message is not evangelism either. Mercy AND judgment. Truth AND love. It is not my responsibility to MAKE you believe. It is my command to witness the gospel. If there's conviction, is that received as hate or fear? I am sorry if you are offended. I would rather that you were convicted.

[Stephen Elmer]

In his commentary on Hebrews, Arthur Pink writes: "They who are strangers to experimental spirituality soon grow weary even of the outward form of worship, unless their eyes are entertained with an imposing ritual and their ears regaled by appealing music. This is the secret of the pomp and pageantry of Romanism—now, alas, being more and more imitated by professing Protestants; it is to attract and charm religious worldlings. Ritualists quite obscure the simplicity and beauty of true Gospel worship. Man in his natural estate is far too carnal to be pleased with a worship in which there is nothing calculated to fire the imagination and intoxicate the senses by means of tangible objects. But they who worship in spirit and in truth can draw nigh to God more joyously in a barn, and mingle their praises with the songs of Heaven, than if they were in a cathedral."

What we see here at Solomon's Porch and others like it are "strangers to experimental spirituality."

[speaker]

Vern, the issue is not that communion would be taken at the house party. Jesus hung out at parties too. The problem I saw in the video was that it was more about the "house party" than about Jesus. As I said in the previous posting - these people seem to be all about themselves; they are happy about finding a suitable religion that will fit their desire to be "themselves" and "cool". Please, go to the original site of the video and check the favorable comments there. You will (hopfully) sense the sick spirit behind these supporters of this type of hip religion. They don't want God they want a hip religion, and a plastic "God" that will fit their sinful desires. The deception is not so hard to discern - their message is "If we can change God to fit us, we don't have to change (repent) to fit Him." Listen to their speeches - they ring empty. The one gal that says that they have no creed... How ridiculous is that?! Or the guy who describes friendship in toilet imagery?! It's fine to be a young believer and still rough on the edges but should you put your immaturity on a video on the net and let the world see you sad state? because of this I can say that there is a high level of narcisism in what I saw. And my feeling is that this video shows exactly that -a sacreligious religion which claims to be relevant and emerging. But can't be emerging wtihout the Bible and without Christ because it will be an emergenece to hell. Better be less hip but be faithful to Christ's call to die to self and live for Him. The essence is the issue, not the wrapper.

[Corinne]

These people are like Starbucks cups: "The way I see it..." (Sorry, I've worked at Starbucks for over four years! To anyone who doesn't get it, Starbucks cups have quotes from random people sharing their opinions on life issues. I digress.) ANYWAY, each person pretty much says, "Well, I think this," or "I believe that." The best was, "If Jesus were here today I THINK He'd be concerned with..." and there is ultimately no authority to correct them. Afterall, Pagitt doesn't want to be one of the power-hungry leaders, and the Bible is relative and changing, and their thoughts are all valid and appreciated...

Oh, and the how telling by the way, for the Mister "If you don't have a pot to **** in" to say that people are the most important thing - the fact that the people who edited that snippet allowed that SHOWS their humanism. People are not and never have been the main factor; GOD'S GLORY is and always will be the concern!

[Truman]

There’s “no statement of belief”? Good grief.

“What would be on Jesus’ plate?” asks one: Globalization, racism and the environment? Oh, for crying out loud, no, no, NO! If Jesus was walking around today, young lady, He would be doing exactly what He did 2,000 years ago: He would be going about His Father’s business. He would be affirming what was done and said about Him and preparing for the sacrifice He was about to do for us. He wouldn’t be tackling globalization or racism or the environment.

There’s no Christianity here. It’s a social club. It’s fine that t hey get together and sing songs and care for each other and love each other, but they’re kidding themselves if they think this is Christianity. I wonder: Is the gospel ever preached? Is sound doctrine ever preached? Is the word of God ever seriously talked about or is it taken totally out of context?

Oh, that’s right: they think the Bible needs to be updated.

These are the kinds of people that Paul warned Timothy about: “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

Sheesh.

(Posted this on the wrong thread earlier. (oops)

[Matt Mc]

Below I have pasted a link to an interview with Doug Pagitt where he pretty well lays out his “theology” in pretty plain terms. Or at least what he doesn’t believe in. It helps shed some light on some of the things said in that video.

http://pod-serve.com/audiofile/filename/1268/The_Nick_and_Josh_Podcast_1.2.mp3

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Amen, Truman.

I'll go it one further and say that if Jesus were walking around on Earth now, He would be judging the living and the dead, and instituting His new reign. It's what He said He'll do, and I believe it. (He also said He plans to burn the world and remake it from scratch.)

Seriously, what's with the hypothetical "if Jesus were born today"? That kind of speculation only indicates that the person knows not of which he speaks--given that almost every aspect of modern life stems directly from those events 2,000 years ago.

- Most of the colonization of America was to the purpose of spreading the Gospel.
- Science, particularly medicine, has been a pet pursuit not of the Eastern world, but the Western--particularly predominantly Christian nations.
- Most people would have no clue about what "racism" is. Pre-Christian societies were/are notoriously tribal; if anything, they're even worse than what we perceive in our own.
- Those pre-Christian societies who bothered themselves about nature at all stayed their hands out of fear of the local "gods." Environmentalism as we know it is a modern conceit.

To say that "Jesus would be dealing with X, Y, and Z" if He hadn't come 2,000 years ago is more than a little ridiculous. And to say that He would do so during His Second Coming is a sure sign of complete Biblical illiteracy.

[speaker]

Matt MC, Thanks for the link with his podacst interview. It documents well this man's state of mind and beleif.

The interview is way to long to endure. This production, being an amateur podcast, does not take into account that people have limit on time and drags on and on.

My suspicion that Mr Pugitt likes how deeply he thinks has been confirmed. I also monitored my spiritual state as I listened to the interview. This talk was dragging me down and further down. My mind was trying to follow but my spirit was closed off. When a believer listens to a Holy Spirit converstation or a faithful expounding of the Scirptures, his spirit connects with the message, and with the person who speaks. The truth of God has this effect of building hope and faith as it is being put forth (Luke 24:32). Mr Pagitt obviously does not study the Bible but has his views built on philosophical literature. If you still decide to listen to the chat make sure that you have time to waste.

Here are some sketchy notes on his "theological" opinions. Some are a synthesis of his thoughts, rather than exact quotes:
-----
Christianity is built on Greko Roman judicial blood God system. Gospel is not all about sin...sin is this disintegration...
Sin is a disintegrating force, illness...then you go through your life counting everything...
(Describes a lady who asked how are we better off from the others if we are not sure that because of our beleif we will go to heaven - a 1 Cor. 15 question. Laughs)...well we can live a better life here on earth.

Integration...with God is what I call it, not walking with God.

Appears to criticize the Greko-Roman world view, that God is this "other" compared to humans. But the Hebrew story takes that notion head on, he says. God repented, wept, God felt - GR scholars explain away, but people being created in the image of God and are participants with God.

The punitive atonement of the cross contradticts the Kingdom of God theology.

People are fully other than God or people are one with God. His view is that, as creation people are one with God.

Catholicism, he says, doesn't fight against the hope and dreams of God for this world...

Responds to one of the anchors, on his statement that he feels like a heretic in the emergent church: "The reason you feel like a heretic is ... that you are a heretic. Because you deviate from the agreed upon story of God. So... you're out." I did not see any concern to conform to a standard of relationship with God through Christ and His commandments (matthew 28:16-20) when he spoke of mission as well. Doing life and livin' life was mission for him.

To his credit he denied that humans are gods.

His "theology" is acutally a heady religious blabber and a philosphy rather than practical faith. His views are close to the so called "process theology" where God doesn't know what's going to happen in the future.
-----

My conclusion is that this man and this group have very little to do with following Jesus and Biblical Christianity. He never made a clear statement that could put him on the spot as a heretic (they never do, actually) but he made enough fuzzy statements to show a fluid belief system which may well qualify him for one.

A confused man, with a confused belief, thinking highly of himself, confusing others. I was so relieved when the interview was over. The only reason I listened to it was to be thorough in my impression of this group.

So I agree with Truman and the rest of the similar postings above. A social club.

[Ya'akov]

Let’s look at how things started out and how they got to be what they are today, we’ll use the example of communion.

In Luke 22:8-20 we see that the absolute first communion coincided with Pesach (Passover), (Yes, Yah’shua celebrated it early with his disciples, because he knew that on the 14th of Aviv, He Himself would be sacrificed as the Pesach Lamb). The symbolism of communion and Pesach/Passover are inseparable.

In Book 2 Chapter 23 of Ecclesiastical History, Eusebius testifies that both Jews and Gentiles celebrated Passover in the early days of the faith in Messiah of 63 AD – it wasn’t just considered an exclusively Jewish feast.

2nd Century, Polycrates testifies in great detail how Pesach/Passover was practiced by early believers.

150-155 A.D Polycarp tried in vain to convince the “pope” to keep with the apostolic tradition for celebrating the Pesach/Passover, especially the timing of it. At least Poly carp was taking Paul’s admonition in 2 Thess 2:15 seriously, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter".

By 185-195 A.D There were some believers still left who were instructed by the Apostle Yochanan (John) to keep Passover on the 14th of Aviv, but the Roman church threatened them with excommunication if they didn’t comply.

325 AD the Nicean council mandates that the “Christian Passover” not ever coincide with the 14th of Aviv (when the 1st Century believers normally celebrated Passover.)

6th Century—the Church renamed the “Christian Passover” as “Easter” after a pagan sex orgy festival for Ishtar (which was always celebrated on Sunday). So the separating of Passover symbolism from communion symbolism was complete at this point.

Fast forward

The 21st Century: some individual in the United States says, ““Let’s do communion like a house party.”

Also the 21st Century, A ministry called “Slice of Laodicea” is appalled by the notion of communion being reduced to a house party.

Um excuse me, I think the abhorrence is a bit late. From the history of things, it is clear that mere men were reinventing and redefining the faith to their own liking for a long time! The communion debacle is just a microcosm of the whole mess. Solomon’s Porch is just a symptom of a long standing problem in what is called the “church.” If you look at what the Emergent church is doing nowadays, it is just a logical extension of the darker side of church history.

[Reality Check]

Having watched the video and read the comments, I have one thought "there is none so blind as those who don't want to see". Your self righteousness has blinded you to the obvious.

The passover meal where Jesus said he was the messiah was a celebration of the children of Israel's deliverance from Egypt.

The New Testament believers celebrated their onesness in Christ daily with 'agape" communal meals together.

Paul's instruction to the Corinthians was that they were to share their food with each other, not keep it for themselves when they came together for the "apape" communal meal.

If you want to direct your hostility at someone or something, I suggest you try the Roman Catholic Church which has all but destroyed biblical chrstianity and replaced it with a man made system that gave us ritual but denied us relationship with God the father, insisting that it is through the father priest.

Before you determine you are right and everyone else is wrong look at Acts 5 v 38 and take Gamaliel's advice. If it is of men it will go no where. If it is of God, keep your hands off because you might end up fighting God.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Gee, "Reality Check," then what are you doing here? If this site is of men, it also will fade away and vanish--but if it's of God, you're kind of in danger yourself.

Gamaliel was wrong. He was advocating "hedging your bet", also known as "being lukewarm."

Tell you what; why don't you yourself have a look at the Scripture about the Bereans--and see how they were described for comparing teachings to the Scripture?

[Truman]

reality check - sorry, but that clip didn't appall me because of a meal. What I find objectionable is their lack of biblical understanding, lack of doctrinal foundation and lack of comprehension for the reasons why Jesus Christ condecended to come to Earth.

I don't determine that "I" am right. I test things in light of scripture. If scripture says that I, myself, am wrong, then I'm wrong. Likewise, when testing in light of scripture what that so-called church proclaims about itself, it comes up seriously lacking.

[Reality Check]

Sorry Truman, the meal comment did appall a lot of people, so my response wasn't written for your benefit. The Roman Catholic church has a decided lack of biblical understanding. Can I count on you to tear them to shreds?
Mrs Pilgrim, your comments are so trite and inaccurate they are not worth responding to.

[Truman]

Reality Check - per the R.C.C., yes, where appropriate. (I am a former Catholic.)

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Well, then, Reality Check, why did you bother? In fact, why did you think it was necessary to insult me? Because I need to be "put in my place"? Because you're SO-O-O-O smart and I should kowtow to your superior brain?

Puh-lease. I quit using that tactic years ago because I realized how prideful I had to be to use it.

Before you go trying to pick that mote out of my eye, you might want to check yours. And furthermore, maybe by your own reasoning, you should keep your hands off the RC organization. They'll vanish if they're not of God, right?

Right?

Or is that also so trite that you don't want to waste your amazing neurons in responding to a dumb woman?

[Reality Check]

You will notice Mrs Pilgrim I didn't bother.

[Jimmy@RelevantChristian]

Uhm....I watched the video...and I have read the book "Church Re-Imagined" from the same 'Solomon's Porch' folk.

First off....the theology is off balance....(I will hate myself for this later) but I would tend to agree with most of you that there is a problem here.

I like the idea of a place of community but when you get to the point that you are watering down the gospel for the sake of not offending someone....you are WRONG! The gospel is not all inclusive of religions...there is only one way, one truth, and His name is Jesus.

Oh...and by the way...the bible should be taken for what it is...the Holy word of God, our sword, our light on a darkened path.

Being relevant is not always a bad thing....being scripturally off is a very bad thing....AND before some of you head down that road...being relevant DOES NOT MEAN that you are automatically scripturally off base.

[Reality Check]

There are very few churches that are not off balance. For instance, where in scripture do we read that the church is supposed to annoint one man to put on a dress and a pointy hat so that they can be singled out for special attention and once they are dressed up, they have some magical spiritual powers which give them the right or ability to drink wine which has magically turned into blood at an altar (which is old covenant) and which the rest have to call "father" when the sciptures clearly teach that we are to call no man father as there is only one father in heaven.

[Alexei Rayu]

A religious art club ;) Ah all these nice people =)

[Darren]

Saw the video and Loved it the emphasis shown. What impressed me more were the comments and responses from viewers on the original site: A typical comments along the lines of: "Wow. I am not even religious yet knowing that something like this is going on within Christianity makes me ecstatic. This is the way religion should be. You guys are amazing! *Gives a great big hug*"

Since I can sense that the comments above are all edited to show conformity.... Im not holding my breath that this will be posted. It would seem that Phariseeism is alive and well here!

[Reality Check]

having done an extensive project on religion v real life christianity Darren, it is obvious that a religious spirit has well and truly taken over organised religion. The evidence is available for all who don't have blinkers on. Those in organised religion that fight tooth and nail to maintain the status quo, which states that anything else is wrong and we know better than the Holy Spirit. The other is the fact that anything that is based on relationship not ritual, is seen as an affront to that which is religious. I think that Jesus made himself clear on this when he called the religious leaders of the day whitened sepulchres and a generation of vipers, holding a form of religion but denying the power of it.