This Purpose-Driven Church Has "Friends in Low Places"

Imagine showing up at church to find that your pastor has decided to stage his very own American Idol contest.

A church member decked in country and western garb walks on stage and begins singing "I've got friends in low places".

In a western twang he belts out such inspired lyrics as:

I've got friends in low places
where the whiskey drowns
and the beer chases my blues away

As soon as this 'church' song is finished the music minister stands up and calls people to worship the Lord.

Does this sound too insane to be true?

It's not! Here is the video to prove it!

This is from Newspring Church in Anderson, South Carolina.

Perry Noble is their pastor and he is a disciple of Rick Warren. Click here to read his open letter to Rick Warren.

After watching this video please scroll down and read the update. This story gets better.

*** Update ***

This story gets weirder by the minute.

We received a tip from a reader that “Pastor” Tony Morgan of NewSpring Church commented on the “American Idol” sermon series at his blog. Here is what he said:

"The vote for next weekend's opening song included Brick House by the Commodores. I'm just praying that God loves funk."

Here is the link.

Yep, "Pastor" Tony was personally pulling for the funk song ‘Brick House’. This is a song that is about the female anatomy. And yes, this song was sung in their church as part of their American Idol contest. Here are some of the lyrical highlights of ‘Brick House’:

Verse:
1. She knows she got everything
a woman needs to get a man, yeah.
How can she use, the things she use
36-24-36, what a winning hand!

Verse:
2. The clothes she wears, the sexy ways,
make an old man wish for younger days
She knows she's built and knows how to please
Sure enough to knock a man to his knees

We're sure these lyrics fit perfectly with the other sermon series they did called "Girls Gone Wild". How kewl is it that they named an entire sermon series after a series of porn videos.

---

Golly those Purpose-Driven Churches sure are relevant.

Comments

[Brady]

Why are you criticizing this guy? It's fairly clear that before this preacher met Rick Warren (aka "dude"), he was a complete failure. Now, using Rick's P-D-C/1-2-3 formula, presto! he's now the pastor of a church of 10,000!!!

This is better than Amway!

"As Rick was, I am now. As Rick is now, I may someday be!"

[Nathan]

I was actually out of town that week. Bummer. For what it's worth, I voted for the song "Wasted" by Carrie Underwood.

First of all, that's not the pastor, it's Lee. He's the worship leader. Second, it should be noted that the song was never spun as a "worship" song. It was a little fun before the service started.

Also, if you check out the previous week's service, there was a great song called "In Christ Alone". Take a look
http://isite78285.intellisite.com/226312.ihtml?ResourceID=1198
(click the video link and skip to about 8:45) It was really good. There are really good songs played every week at Newspring, FWIW. Last week: "Jesus Paid it All", "The Solid Rock", "'Tis So Sweet (to trust in Jesus)".

[Ken Silva]

Brady,

Woh, dude what you said here is so awesome: "As Rick was, I am now. As Rick is now, I may someday be!"

Yo, this is so relevant and will make all the Purpose Driven Mormons feel right at home!

For those who didn't know this Mormon teaching, "As man is, God once was; as God is man may become."

So Brady I lift my glass to you brother. Don't worry though, it's O'Douls dude!

[Val]

Nathan,

Your explanation made the whole thing worse mate.

" it should be noted that the song was never spun as a "worship" song. It was a little fun before the service started"

Who on earth has a "little fun" at church singing songs like about drinking booze?!

Ya'll have taken the bait and have been sucked into falsely believing you're doing church.

Come out of the world mate and be separate!

[Arthur]

The church would vote for their favorite of four song selections to open the next weeks service with. One executive staff member said on his blog that he was praying that "God loves funk" because one of the songs was his favorite funk songs: 'Brick House'. Research the lyrics to that song, which is a sexually explicity tribute to the female body, and you'll think "Friends in low places was tame by comparison. The fact that it was even an option presented was beyond belief...sadly for the staff member, the song didn't get selected. Maybe the congregants have better sense than the leadership.

[Paul]

"As Rick was, I am now. As Rick is now, I may someday be!"

Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. Jas 4:14

[john]

I'd categorize this under the heading of "bad judgment" or "mistake". It's unfortunate because the worship time had many great songs as Nathan pointed out.

I've done stuff like this before. As a praise leader, I looked for songs to "break the ice" and get everyone involved. A couple times, we did "We are Family" (the whole family of God thing ya know). Most everyone got it and it was a bit fun and innocuous. But there was one elder that HATED it. He told me it made him feel like he was in a bar. I asked him if he'd ever been in a bar. He admitted he hadn't. (Head scratch...)

The point is that sometimes, praise and worship leaders make bad judgment calls. It's a bit over the top to post one 3 minute video of a church and then condemn the entire thing. You don't know the people there. You don't have the full context here.

So while you can decide to say this was an unfortunate decision, please stop deriding everything they do there. You make mistakes too. Aren't our words to be seasoned with grace?

[Nathan]

Val,
You do realize that last phrase can be used to condemn just about any activity on earth?

Secondly, again you assume that the song was part of "worship". As I said, it wasn't.

Finally, would it really have made you feel any better about the service if the song hadn't been played? There are 1) colored moving lights, 2) jeans and t-shirts worn by just about everyone, 3) contemporary Christian music along with electric guitars, drums, and all the like, and 4) video productions and a theme to support the sermon.

If by "doing church", you mean "church the way you do it", then I'm sure they are under no such delusion. They know they don't do it like you do. And that's ok, because chances are, you don't do it like the church down the road does it, or like churches in the 1800's did it, or the way the apostles did it for that matter.

[Steffen Boeskov]

May I suggest we all remember Proverbs 31,6-7

Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;

7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

I've got friends in low places
where the whiskey drowns
and the beer chases my blues away

I guess I dont see the problem...

[Val]

Nathan,

Grow up mate!

That isn't church. That's a bunch of boys who never grew up and they are pretending that they have their own TV show.

Secondly mate, the fact that the pastors of that church would have sooooooooooooo little discernment about what is appropriate for church tells me I needn't bother with the rest of their "ministry". They've bought the whole seeker sensitive lie.

[Jim W]

Notice that Tony closed down the comments section of this post when it got too close for comfort. He knows he's wrong, he just likes his current life too much to give up the trash and completely surrender it all to God.

[Nathan]

Val,
"That isn't church. That's a bunch of boys who never grew up and they are pretending that they have their own TV show."
Umm...ok. I'm not sure how you figure that. Anyway...

What "seeker-sensitive lie" are you talking about, btw?

I still think that many of you are missing the point that there is a clear distinction between "worship" and other stuff. For instance, there's a big difference between parking and walking into church and actually worshiping. There's a big difference between the casual conversation in the lobby, and worship. There's a big difference between the announcements, and worship.

It's also clear that even if this song (or brick house) were never played, you'd still strongly dislike Newspring. It just so happens to be the easiest thing for you to criticize.

[Val]

Nathan,

There is NEVER a time when it is appropriate to sing 'Low Places' or 'Brick House' in church!

Church is supposed to be the house of the Lord and the gathering of believers but your 'pastors' have turned it into an 'idol' factory.

Your pastors have sinned by doing this. It is an offense against the Lord and it is an offense against his people. We have every right to be indignant regarding this travisty.

Your pastors need to repent. If they don't repent then you have no business staying there.

You need to find a church that understands what church is and is faithful to preaching, teaching and living God's word.

[Nathan]

"There is NEVER a time when it is appropriate to sing 'Low Places' or 'Brick House' in church!"

Since I've made it clear that this was BEFORE the service started, you must be talking about "in the church building".

So do you also think it's a sin to listen to it in your car? What about the mall, or a restaurant as background music? Would you storm out in anger if you heard it there? Or is this more of a "it can't be played in the church building" type thing?

I'm not sure if he was being serious or not, but I think Steffen made a good point.

Also, does it make a difference WHAT song is being played? For instance, the week before this (the first week of the series) the song "It's not over" by Daughtry was played before the service. There's no alcohol or ambiguous references to the female anatomy in that one. Do you have a problem with that also?

It's just hard to discuss this without understanding the full scope of your criticism. I hope you understand.

As for your last statement, I'd say that NewSpring does do those things. It's just that they play songs you don't approve of, on top of preaching, teaching, and living God's Word.

"Church is supposed to be the house of the Lord and the gathering of believers but your 'pastors' have turned it into an 'idol' factory."

Actually, "church" is you. You are the church. I'll assume you're talking about a church gathering. Your statement that it's "supposed to be the house of the Lord" is not supported by the New Testament. And no, they haven't turned "church" into an 'idol' factory.

[Jim from OldTruth.com]

Thanks for posting the video. We have written a series of 4 posts on Perry Noble's entertainment-drive church system, which he has been teaching to other pastors through NewSpring's pastor conferences. You'll find the critique online here:

http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.600

[David Niles Jr]

I"m not surprised. Apostasy is rampant in the Church. We have gotten our eyes off of Jesus and into the world. May we repent of that and seek God"s face in these Last Days. Maranatha!

[Ken Silva]

You know, after watching the video closely, are you really sure this wasn't the prophet Isaiah worshiping in the Temple? How like the prophet as I noticed during the last chorus that our "entertainer" encourages the church to join in the chorus and extends the microphone so they can together adore Jesus Christ - Who, of course, is their "reason for being" - while they sing "where the whiskey drowns and the beer chases my blues away." Very nice, I'm sure the Lord was quite proud.

O yes, can't you just see Isaiah and the angels together singing, "Give me an hour and I'll be as high..." Um, of course Garth was referring to "high and lifted up." Uh-huh. Right...this was atrocious and anyone who defends this at all - let alone in a church building prior to Sunday morning worship - had best follow 2 Corinthians 13:5.

By they way, notice how the "worship" leader blethers on about how he was glad that by the congregation singing a very secular song about bars and booze they had already begun "having fun" as they begin their "worship."

Oh no, so now I guess ol' Perry Noble will have to consider me one of his critics because I dared touch one of "the Lord's anointed." Then good, he knows where he can find me:

"I believe more critics will begin to emerge nationwide…and I also believe that they can kiss my rear end if they don’t like what we are doing!!! (Yes, I meant that!)"

I guess now he's acting like his "friends in low places." By the way, the above is bullet number 13 at this link from his blog right here:

http://www.perrynoble.com/2007/01/03/i-believe/

[Jeannette]

I am thinking that maybe the "pastor" and Nathan forgot what reverence means. God is not amused with such behavior. Then to try and justify it with weak arguments only proves the sad disillusioned state that NewSpring is in. Since when did entertainment become necessary to get "loosened up" for worship? Being a Christian is being in a constant state of worship of a Holy God. I love God and pray for His forgiveness and guidance to keep me from the mindset that NewSpring is in.
Nathan,
Your arrogance is preventing you from listening to sound advice from godly people.

[james]

I think it would be more accurate to define these meetings as a Newspring Church show. I think many here are expecting a traditional "church service" where Newspring staff is probably going for more of a commercial for the commmunity of believers known as Newspring Church. While this may irritate some people, it does not violate any scripture.

[Nathan]

Ken,
""You know, after watching the video closely, are you really sure this wasn't the prophet Isaiah worshiping in the Temple?""

Since I have pointed out at least twice now that this was not, nor was it intended to be, worship, I have no choice but to conclude that you are either ignoring that fact, or are purposefully distorting it to prove your point. Either way, it's not right. Please try to get it right.

Jeannette,

""I am thinking that maybe the "pastor" and Nathan forgot what reverence means.""

I am thinking maybe you've forgotten that announcements are no more reverent than this was. Or for that matter, the conversation about your kids with your friends before church.

""Then to try and justify it with weak arguments only proves the sad disillusioned state that NewSpring is in.""

Weak? I'm afraid the burden is on you to show how this is sin, my friend. That's a hefty charge, and a simple "be ye separate" ain't gonna cut it. As I said, I've seen that used to condemn just about everything.

""Since when did entertainment become necessary to get "loosened up" for worship?""

See, the argument keeps changing. One minute, it's a sin. The next minute, it's not necessary. No one claimed it was necessary. Again, if you are going to be consistent, then you should converse with no one before church, and there should be no announcements during church. It should be worship from the second you step in the "church".

""Your arrogance is preventing you from listening to sound advice from godly people.""

So, you have set yourself up as the "godly" one, and me as the "arrogant" one. A person could very easily see that statement and think the opposite. For the record, I do not think you arrogant, nor I more godly.

""I love God and pray for His forgiveness and guidance to keep me from the mindset that NewSpring is in.""

I'd be careful saying stuff like that. It makes you sound very much like this:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2018:11-12;&version=49;

[Jim from OldTruth.com]

One has to wonder if any of the scriptures that warn Christians not to conform to the world are ever considered at NewSpring, especially when you see Perry's blog speaking highly of a drug pusher song like this one:

Perry says: "[My wife] and I were driving home on Saturday night. (She has a sweet car--a convertible...and she let's me drive it on the weekend!) Anyway, on the radio station we were listening to they had an "all request" night...and someone requested, "Ice Ice Baby." I was so excited! I know this is going to ruin the view that some of you have of me--but I love that song. And if you are anywhere around my age--there was a time that you loved it too. In fact, you still know the words, "Rollin' in my five point O with my rag top down so my hair can blow..." Go ahead, finish it--you know you want to! So here we are, jammin' to this song--and we pull up to a stoplight. Do you know what my first reaction was? You guessed it--I reached and turned the radio down...I didn't want anyone to actually see me enjoying that song. But then I sat there and thought, "Wait a minute--I like this song--I don't even know the people in the cars around me...and I am letting what they might think about me control my behavior--NO WAY!" So I cranked it back up..."

NOW CONSIDER THE LYRICS FROM THAT SONG:

"I'm killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom. Deadly, when I play a dope melody. The girlies on standby, waving just to say hi. Did you stop? no -- I just drove by. Girls were hot wearing less than bikinis. Rockman lovers driving lamborghinis. Cut like a razor blade so fast, other djs say, damn If my rhyme was a drug, I'd sell it by the gram."

http://www.perrynoble.com/2005/10/04/ice-ice-baby/

And so passages like 1 John 2:15: go out the window:
"Do not love the world or the things in the world"

[Arthur]

The matter that was brought up about if it is not ok to listen to this in church then what about the car? Exactly...Jesus made worship a matter of living in his presence always and at all times (John 4). Therefore, if it is not appropriate for church then it isn't at home, that is at least how I am raising my sons because we don't check God at the door of our home and reserve Him for church alone. What are you glorifying and what does it take to entertain you? Those are good questions to ask in order to take your spiritual temperature. Isaiah falling on his face and proclaiming "I am a man of unclean lips..." and Peter falling on his knees in his boat and asking Jesus to leave him for he is a sinful man is what happens when you are in the presence of Jesus...sin is exposed not glamorized or enjoyed as a harmless 'non-worship' time in church. I Cor. 14 say's that unbelievers should fall down and say 'God is in their midst.' The medium becomes the message in these churches and we would do good to first ask "Is it Biblical?" "Whatever is lovely, noble, pure etc. think on these things."

[Arthur]

Here is a great quote from Pastor Tony Morgan on his post about "If it looks like I'm tired."

"Bottom line? It's good to be in an environment with a bunch of folks that recognize that technology is critical for the Church at this moment in time. We can't reach today's culture without maximizing the use of technology. It intersects everyone's lives. The Church is impotent without it."

I don't know how they did it in the book of Acts... I think Acts 2:8 should have said "After technology has been developed you can be my witnesses in Jersualem, Samaria, Judea and the utter most ends of the earth."

[Steffen Boeskov]

Let me ask a direct question to Val, Ken and others:

Would you consider it un-godly, heresy or something like that to have a reading of Proverbs 31 at a church-service?

And that's a serious question.

[james]

The quote from Perry’s blog really has nothing to do with Newspring church. I hear worse things on tv, but I learn to enjoy the good and spit out the bad. Let’s not condemn a great church just because Perry likes a catchy song. If Newspring is doing anything that violates scripture could you please point it out?

Oh, and as far as being reverent…early Christians would be horrified that we would actually use the restroom in church, yet I think we have all done that. This is just another example of how culture has changed.

Also, it’s really funny that you would be against using technology in church. Microphones, air condition…..even a piano is a modern piece of technology. Church could survive without these things, but in our culture we are impotent without them. I think Tony was right.

[Jim W]

james, you need to go back and read the post and the comments. No one is against using technology. The post/comments is against thinking that we MUST use technology (or otherwise be "relevant") or we can't accomplish God's mission. As far as pointing out to you where Perry, et al are sinning, why don't you point out to us where he is? In other words, read your Bible and see how many places God is worshipped in awe and reverence. See how many times God's closest disciples fell down and cowered in fear upon seeing Him. See how many times God killed someone because they failed to follow His precepts and commands. Read through your Bible and point out to us how often various prophets failed miserably when they embraced the methods of their local culture, yet when they embraced God and followed His commands, no matter how ridiculous it may have seemed at the time, they were successful.

[Jeannette]

Nathan,
Stay right where you are. I see that you are learning good things. Far be it from me or anyone else to guide you to God's word for the shaping of your christian walk.
Jeannette

[Jessica]

This entire conversation is sad. Christians should not be attacking other Christians like this! We will always have differences in what we believe and how we live out that belief. This is my story: I became a Christian about three years ago (and yes, while attending a seeker-sensitive church). I was baptized soon after. I developed an intense desire to learn more about God and started reading everything I could get my hands on and talking to others who have been Christians for a long time. All I heard was how to do this, how to do that, stop doing that, don't do this or that, do this, etc. The list was exhaustive. I had to learn to be submissive to my husband, stop watching TV shows that I liked, stop listening to music that was inappropriate, including some so-called Christian songs that weren't up to par, learn how to be like the woman of Proverbs 31, be kind to everyone, don't lose your temper, just be positive all the time, don't gossip, and stop drinking beer, etc. Every day I worked SO HARD to do all these things, but you know what? At the end of the day, I realized I had done something wrong, maybe not even once or twice but more than that! I was sick with myself for not being able to live a "Godly" life. I would try harder the next day, only to have it happen again, and again, and again. I grew despondent, knowing that every day I was letting God down by not being able to do it right. I began to consider that the Christian life was not for me because I had never been so miserable in my life. One day I spent the whole day reading about submission and I thought, OK, I can do this. As soon as my husband got home and started acting like a jerk, I totally lost it and blew up at him. Later that night, I let the thought of suicide enter my heart. Oh, I knew I would never really do it, but the thought was there. I was just too messed up to be a Christian.

It was the next day that my mom gave me a book by Steve Brown called Scandalous Freedom. I could not read enough of that book, and I wept as I read it. I did not have to be pefect. God would change me little by little as time went on. He was not going to strike me dead if I drank a beer or listened to Van Halen. As a matter of fact, he still loved me and I was still going to heaven. I learned that it was not about WHAT we do but WHO we know (Jesus). It was not all about jumping higher or trying harder. I also learned that EVERYONE sins, and if they pretend not to, then they are lying. Hypocrits, I guess you would call them. They are the ones damning you for drinking a beer if you are a Christian but going home and beating their kids.

I still go to my seeker-sensitive church, and I love it. I know I am a Christian, and it's not because of what I do or don't do, but because I know Jesus. I have felt guilty from time to time thanks to a few people who say it's bad to attend a seeker-sensitive church, so yes, I have tried other churches. There just seemed to be no joy. I always can't wait to get back "home" to my church.

I'm sorry that some of you think we aren't real Christians or don't love God because we don't worship as you do and that we don't always listen to organ music, etc. That could not be farther from the truth. I know that without the blood of Jesus, I am nothing; just as fithy rags.

I'm sure I will get blasted in some way for posting this because I am not very eloquent, probably spelled a lot of things wrong, etc. I even listened to my Van Halen CD yesterday. But I am recovered from the mess I was in before. I still try as hard as I can to please God, but I know that if I don't get it all right every day, I will still see his face someday. :)

[Sam]

The typical "Pharisee" label if you criticize what people like Perry Noble are doing. Its like Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law) on message boards. Of course in Purpose Driven churches, anyone who opposes transitioning and following Warren is labeled a Pharisee or worse a wolf in sheep's clothing or even Sanballat (see SOutherland's book transistioning.)

Now, we have Nathan rushing to the defense here. Interesting he runs in the same circles as these pastors like Perry Noble http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/04/27/friday-favorites-pastors-edition/. Also, it is very fascinating that Nathan is self employed now. I wonder if he is generating business from these sources. A little conflict of interest in his apologies of Noble.

Nathan, you make me laugh. Comparing singing Friends in Low Places to announcements. Pretty weak defense there.

And I will call it a sin. Bowing to the God of relevance and culture. Trying to make the church hip. God doesnt need these gimmicks to save people.

Noble is just copying all the latest church growth fads to a tee. He plagiarizes Ed Young Jr, Mark Driscoll to a VERY large extent but of course he calls this "personalization". Point number 2 from below.

http://www.perrynoble.com/2007/05/15/eight-reminders-for-effective-communication-part-one/

And please dont insult me by saying he doesnt plagarize or try some postmodern deconstruction of that term

http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=3195

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/QuestionsAndAnswers/ByTitle/1623_What_is_plagiarism/

The singing of the song "Friends in low places" is just a symptom of what is going on at Newspring.

[Christian]

James:

In our culture we could be impotent without technology? Possibly...except for the power of the Holy Spirit. The apostles would have been impotent to spread the Word in their culture were it not for the power of the Spirit.

Through Him, we can do all He wills us to do. If we rely not on God but on ourselves, then all the technology the world can invent won't make us powerful to spread the Word.

[Sonya]

This comment is humbly directed to Steffen B. in response to your suggestions and comments regarding Proverbs 31.

Reading Proverbs 31 in a church service would only be direct heresy or un-godly, if it was read out of context. If it was read to support a lifestyle that keeps it's participants (drunkeness)from inheriting the kingdom of heaven (Galatians 5:21), then yes, it would be horribly wrong and perverse.

In Prov. 31:6&7 God was in no way condoning 'strong drink' for the purposes that this song is. To use this verse to support that is to call God either a liar or a schizophrenic. He states in multiple places to abstain from that lifestyle. (Dt 21:20, Lk 21:34, Romans 13:13, 1 Cor. 5:11).

The truth of this passage is the following:
A mother is addressing her son, the king. She is counselling him as to proper conduct. She is earnestly relaying truth to him. To not spend his precious kingly time (v.3 give not thy strenth) w/and for women. Or to give his time to the ways which destroy kings (drinking,etc). If you read v. 4 (KJV) you can see that she is pleading with him to understand as she repeats, "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor princes, strong drink:"
WHY? Because he could easily govern wrong in that state.

She is admonishing him to save his 'strong drink' for those who are on their deathbed/row. To give (which means allow) those who are dying or who are to die a strong drink to help them to bear what they are going through. And wine to those with heavy hearts (bitter) hearts. It was for a medicinal type purpose, not at all for drunkeness. She is saying to let 'him' (those) do that, but that it is not at all the actions of a king. It is the actions of someone dying, or someone in dire straights. And it doesn't condone it as Godly, whatsoever. To continue in the context, she says that he needs to speak out for those who cannot (v. 8&9) (b/c of their impending destruction,) and also for those who are poor and needy.
He (the king)would not be able to govern well, if 'under the inluence'.

A couple verses in Proverbs that would support 'no drinking' would be Prov. 23:20-21 (Be not amoung winebibbers...drunkards will come to poverty) & Prov.26:9.

We cannot take one verse, (and by the way, 'beer' is a horrible & deceitful translation; liquor would be more accurate for 'strong drink') if it disagrees with all the other verses, and call it right. It is the one of the deceits of the day to do so. I am not trying to offend you by saying that. I can only hope that you will hear my heart.

The bible says that the last days are full of deceit. We should be anxiously searching what that might be, so as not to allow it in our lives, or to cut it out of our lives. The latter has been my experience these past few years.

We should run from any person or any church, who is honoring a lifestyle wether by word or deed, that completely contradicts the reverence of God's word and commands.

I would question our reasons to want to defend anything wordly. It cannot be a part of the true church. It's not possible. God is the one who established that. ('not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing..' Eph. 5:27)

Be on alert.

[Nathan]

Jessica,
Thank you so very much. Your post was most humbling. I thank God for stories like yours.

Sam,
I personally thought that we were having a decent conversation about an issue, but I suppose that there is a danger in debating subjects like this one publicly. It almost always turns personal, and we end up straying from the issue (was it a sin to sing this song before church), and have drifted to baseless speculation and personal attacks. I presume you are probably older than me, so I do not want to "rebuke" you for doing so, but I do want to "exhort" you as 1 Timothy 5 says. Making personal accusations based on little more than your own assertion is probably exactly what 2 Timothy 2:23 is talking about. For the record, your implication in your second paragraph could not possibly be more untrue. I beg you to think before you type. I mean that with no disrespect.

Sonya,
Thank you for your response to Steffen. It was indeed said in humility, and I appreciate that.

Jim W,
I actually agree with you concerning your conclusion. Yes, God can still use us to reach the lost without using technology. However, it is our responsibility to convince others of the Gospel. Therefore, I would conclude that it is our responsibility to do anything within the means God has given us (outside of sinning) to win the lost. That includes using Technology. I would then conclude that it would be a mistake not to use technology to win the lost, perhaps even a sin (see the parable of the talents).

I truly hope that this discussion can turn back to a civil discourse.

[Nathan]

By the way, I want to say a big thank you to the moderator/editor of A Little Leaven. Unlike many of your peers in the blogosphere, you have not (to my knowledge) censored any of the comments from the opposition on this thread, nor have you threatened to ban anyone from this site for disagreeing. I respect you very much for that policy, and it demonstrates that you are not an isolationist and you don't prefer an echo-chamber.

Thank you!

[Steffen Boeskov]

Sonya,

Thanks for your response. While I agree with part of your exegesis, I still thinks it's hard to get around the fact that these verses speaks positivily about using alcohol in a way that most of us would judge inappropiate. The official danish translation says: "let him drink and forget his poverty, stop thinking about his misery".

Alas, I admit that my use of these verses was somehow polemic.

Coming from a entirely different context than the american my concern with a post like this is following (this is not to you, Sonya, as I wouldn't know your opinions on the subjects):

1) It seems like a lot of churches in USA have a very unhealthy and irresponsible view on alcohol. To demonize alcohol and prohibit even moderate drinking is just going to make things worse. It is perfectly possible to be a christian and enjoy alcohol at the same time. I speak of personal experience.
We must learn our kids that alcohol can be enjoyed in reasonable quantity and at the same time learn them about the dangers of abuse. We cannot do that if there's a zero-tolerance policy regarding alcohol. It's a betrayal of our kids if we just prohibits alcohol and then let it be up to them to make their own experiences with alcohol (and they will eventually).

2) Public mockery of other churches is not something we should be doing. There's a lot of websites in the US that is very concerned about pointing fingers at other christians. It's very hard to see just a little love in these post, and I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone could possible believe in their heart, that the way of Christ is to do such a thing.

If you're truly concerned then write a letter, make a phonecall, write an email - but if you don't love these people that concerns you - then please don't.

Peace
Steffen

[sam]

Nathan, did that hit a little close to home? OK, are any of these pastors or churches your clients as well? Have you done work for them?

Ah, 2 Timothy 2:22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202&version=31

Context, context, context. Did you graduate from the Rick Warren school of bible study and application. Now tell me how singing this song in a church service is pursuing righteousness. No, it wasnt before the service but during. and then pray tell how does Perry live out vs 25 about gently instructing those that oppose him. Oh, thats right by Perry telling them to kiss his rear end. Nice application of that text.

Nathan, is it really our job to convince people of the gospel? Since when? I mistakenly thought that was the Holy Spirit's roll to regenerate hearts. Now you are telling me that it is our job to win the lost. We have the power to save souls? No, my friend it is our job to spread the gospel.

I see on your blog that you list 10 things that you are looking for in a church to call your new home. May I suggest that you add a number 11. The church must be God centered not man centered. Obviously, the man centered churches you have been attending have affected your theology.

In my first post I did addresses the singing of the song and that it is sinful to sing such a song within church.

Oh, I see that you are complementary of this site for not editing and controlling the comment section. You mean much like Tony Morgan's blog http://www.tonymorganlive.com/tony_morgan_one_of_the_si/2007/05/new_comment_gui.html#trackback and how he deletes comments that dont "echo" his views. I see. But that kind of thing never happens with your clients....i mean fellow bloggers.

Again, God doesnt need gimmicks and marketing to save souls.

Col 2:8

[Jim from OldTruth.com]

Yes, we certainly don't want those echo chambers, including the Perry's that echo the Ed Young's, and the Gary's and Todd's that echo the Perry's. And to insure that none of them can ever be accused of banning or censoring comments, almost everyone who matters in that movement - simply disallows comments on their blogs in the first place. Exceptions being Todd and Tony who allow comments but . . . have a history of banning and censoring folks that express our viewpoint. Perhaps they need to be added to the list of non-dialoging isolationists.

This discussion thread is all about sinful behavior in worldly churches and by the CEO pastors that lead them, it's the type of behavior that mature men - scholars and pastors wrote about when saying:

"The most insidious opposition to the Gospel has come from within worldly churches." --Iain Murray

"The greatest threat to the gospel specific to today is the indirect challenge of pragmatism among evangelicals". --Mark Dever

"The biggest mission field in America is professing- Christianity". --John MacArthur

[Stephen]

I'll admit to being a fairly liberal Christian -- if a church wants to have fun with something like this on some weeknight, I wouldn't have a problem.

But on a Sunday? Right before a church service? That's too far even by my standards. It shows an astounding lack of respect for God.

[Jim W]

Nathan, I don't know how you could arrive at the conclusion that not using technology is a sin. As I have said, and will say again, technology is not the problem. Using it unwisely certainly is a problem. Using it as an attractant is a problem. Thinking we can use technology to replace good, old-fashioned Bible teaching is a problem. Claiming that embracing technology is the only way to go, is more a sin in my mind than a failure to use it.
You probably have no problem with vulgar language and don't see that as sinning, but what if I do? Same dichotomy you have set up with your not using tecnology is sin statement.
As far as a civil discourse and getting back to one, I see nowhere in any comments anything resembling incivility. Only a modern liberal mindset would see anything un-civil in chastizing an erring brother or sister.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

I have a question for those trying to defend the practice described in the post above (in this instance and all others):

How do you reconcile this conduct to Col. 3:17? "And everything, whatever you do in word or in work, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father through Him." (Interlinear Bible)

[james]

An “echo chamber” blog is dangerous no matter whose it is. I share Nathan’s appreciation.

“The post/comments is against thinking that we MUST use technology (or otherwise be "relevant") or we can't accomplish God's mission.”

It’s possible to have a good church without technology, but we would be crazy not to use such a great tool. Remember hymnbooks and even our personal bibles are products of technology. Theses things are not necessary for the Holy Spirit to work but you can’t deny that the Holy Spirit has used them to accomplish his mission. Just as God used the printing press to accomplish his mission in past generations he is using the internet and big screens to accomplish his mission in this generation. Try starting a church with only the resources they had available in the first century church and you will see how important technology is.

You cannot replace the Holy Spirit with technology. I know the Holy Spirit is the most important thing. We should totally trust in the Holy Spirit while still using technology to its full potential. I would be happy to answer any of your questions if you don’t understand this.

“Nathan, you make me laugh. Comparing singing Friends in Low Places to announcements. Pretty weak defense there.”

I think Nathan made a good point here. Singing “friends in low places” is not worship. Making announcements is not worship. Using the church bathroom is not worship. Just because it happens in a church building does not make it worship. Newspring’s worship service was separate from this opening song. You should not lump them together.
Jim, hers is some “old truth”, early Christians would probably be more horrified by using the church bathroom than singing a silly song. Again, you can’t say that singing this song is disrespectful but using the church bathroom is not. Let’s be consistent.

Again, I challenge anyone to show me where Newspring has clearly violated scripture. I have looked and have not found any solid evidence that Newspring is not biblical. Perry noble has publicly stated his reliance on scripture for everything. He may not be the greatest pastor we have ever seen but I believe he is honestly trying to apply scripture to the best of his ability.

[Nathan]

Sam,
""Nathan, did that hit a little close to home? OK, are any of these pastors or churches your clients as well? Have you done work for them?""

Perhaps you should re-read my comment. I made it clear that your accusation was untrue. I almost feel bad for even dignifying such an outright, unfounded, baseless speculation meant (I presume) to make it seem as if I have an ulterior motive for defending these men. And for what it's worth, I do believe Perry and other could use more tact in addressing their critics (or at least not address them at all). But one or two examples of Perry emphatically, and sometimes crudely, dismissing those who constantly barrage him with criticism, is nothing compared to the kind of stuff he has to deal with. If you want to be consistent, then you have to take to heart the exhortation you give to Perry and do a much better job of applying verse 25 yourself. Take a look at your own writings before you call the kettle black.

""Nathan, is it really our job to convince people of the gospel? Since when? I mistakenly thought that was the Holy Spirit's roll to regenerate hearts. Now you are telling me that it is our job to win the lost.""

It is indeed our job to evangelize. 2 Corinthians 5. No where did I say it's our job to save people. We have no power to save anyone. Only the blood of Christ is able to do such a thing. I said (as you can clearly see) that God uses us to win the lost. Ask Jim from oldtruth.com, he wrote an entire article on why Calvinists should be good evangelists. We don't simply sit back and hope the Holy Spirit does all the work for us ... we still have a biblical responsibility to do what we can to win the lost.

And for the record (to Jim and Sam), I do believe that if a person is going to open their blog to the public comments, they should allow an open dialog. However, if a person doesn't have time to moderate or participate in the comments, he is within his right to disable them. I do not believe, however, that a person should write a controversial post and not allow comments. That goes for all the people Jim mentioned (I don't know of any banning or deleting of comments from Todd, although I could be wrong, I haven't known him that long). So yes Jim, I agree. A blog is all about reader participation, and so comments should be allowed.

[Jim from OldTruth.com]

James:

The "old truth" that churches need does not revolve around philosophies of bathroom etiquette; it's the plain spoken Gospel that is unmixed with sinful worldliness. You and your brother Nathan are simply doing what you've done on my blog numerous times in the past and that is to continually reassert your position over and over again until everybody grows tired of the same humanistic arguments and quits. Neither of you are honestly trying to interact with the scriptures. And Nathan's outcry for civility, strikes me as odd considering how many times I've been the topic of his very uncharitable blog postings and 'descriptive' email as of late. If you two are going to continue showing up on various Perry Noble postings around the blogosphere why not at least deal with scripture? How about starting with the word "dignity" in Titus 2:7-8 as it relates to pastors:

"Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, DIGNITY, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us". The Greek word for "DIGNITY" (G4587) means decency, dignity, seriousness.

Do you see that word (and the whole passage really) as being compatible with NewSpring's pastors, and their remarks about about punching people in the throat, and Jesus being a "dude", and their defense of Brickhouse? (the list could go on).

In your call for us to point out sin, remember that it is God's standard of sin that matters, and not yours or mine. It's true that nobody is perfect, yes. But it's also true that some people are not (biblically) fit to be pastors, regardless of how 'cool' their 'leadership' may seem.

[Ken Silva]

"you can’t say that singing this song is disrespectful but using the church bathroom is not."

Please, the above is a foolish argument. There is never a time when a Christian should be singing a song that glorifies the use of alcohol to "chase my blues away" and says, "give me a hour and I'll be as high..." - period.

And how much worse when members of the Church are assembled in a church building preparing to do what their name implies - those called OUT of the world to assemble and worship the one true and living God through the Spirit in Christ.

[Nathan]

I would concur with Jim's sentiment. If we start letting anger creep into the conversation, it will go nowhere. We certainly need to focus more on scripture and what God would want. First though, in stead of "reasserting my position over and over", I'll ask a couple of clarification questions. Sometimes, terminology is confused and things need to be clarified before either party can see eye to eye and move forward.

Q1: Jim, you mention "sinful worldliness" making its way into the church. Can you please define "sinful worldliness" in terms of actions defined by scripture?

Q2: Would any of you (for the record) consider the song sang after the "friends in low places" song, "Made to Worship" by Chris Tomlin, a sin as well? What about "Word of God Speak" by MercyMe ... is that considered sin too?

So, if any of you want to progress with this, feel free to. I personally promise to keep the personal references to none, and focus just on the subjects of the debate. Christians ought not be at each other's throats, and I repent for the times I've done it before, and I certainly don't want to do it here.

Mrs. Pilgrim,
Thank you for your question. It's interesting, because Col. 3:17 is another one of those verses that can be used to condemn just about anything. For instance, it would be easy to condemn the song "Mary Had A Little Lamb" using this verse if we applied it as strictly as some would want. Also, email doesn't necessarily glorify Jesus, and I don't know about you but I haven't given thanks for email in quite a long time (if ever). And the list could go on and on ... traffic, reading the newspaper, watching a movie, hitting the snooze button. But, perhaps your right and we are all sinning in every single "neutral" activity we participate ... and if so, a church singing "friends in low places" is the least of our worries.

I hope that answered your question. If not, feel free to elaborate and I'll try to answer better.

[Douglas]

Chris Tomlin will be appearing alongside heretics and false teachers such as T. D. Jakes and others at Hillsongs' 2007 Conference in June: http://www.hillsong.com/conferences/hillsong/default.asp?pid=917 He sorely lacks true biblical discernment like most people today. The church is in "Dire Straits." Hillsongs' Conferences have been deceiving the church for years.

I don't care how nice Chris Tomlin can sing, I don't waste my money or time listening to him. He needs to seriously repent and renounce his support and involvement with false teachers and heretics. So does Steven Curtis Chapman who will be performing there as well.

Here is some info about Brian Houston, his wife Bobby and Hillsong Australia: http://www.rickross.com/groups/hillsong.html Sometimes it takes the secular media to expose the rot that is in the Church before the professing church does!

Hillsong Australia have had the false teachers Rick Warren and Joyce Meyer and many others at their conferences in the past, when will it ever end? At the return of the LORD Jesus Christ?

Houstons...We Have A Problem
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~rseaborn/houstons_problem.html
UNMASKED... The Houstons
Part One: You Need More Money
by Neil Richardson

There is a world-wide delusion blinding many in the church.

The fear of God and the holiness of God are sorely absent in many professing churches in these dark days, not many people are working out their own salvation with "fear and trembling." Literally!

[james]

Jim,
“In your call for us to point out sin, remember that it is God's standard of sin that matters, and not yours or mine.”

Go back and read my comments again. I never asked for you to point out sin. I asked for you to point out why Newspring church is not biblical. I’m still waiting….

“But it's also true that some people are not (biblically) fit to be pastors, regardless of how 'cool' their 'leadership' may seem.”

Let me just make sure I understand what you are trying to say. Newspring is not biblical because Perry is not biblically fit to be a pastor? And Perry is not fit to be a pastor because he does not meet your definition of decency, dignity, and seriousness? That’s a very interesting, but im sure you understand how subjective it is. If you don’t understand I will be happy to explain.

[Jim W]

james: I'm not sure if you're addressing me or Jim from Old truth, but I'll answer you. It's up to you to provide the evidence for Perry's Biblicity. I'm tired of defending what is right and proper to you punks. You go and read your Bible and tell me why you think Perry is acceptable. I'm through providing answers, it's up to you to provide some for a change. Get off your fanny and read your Bible and then when you've grown up a lot, you try and defend such trivial pursuits in the house of God. God is not mocked. End of sentence. Period.

Time for you to work for a change. See ya.

[james]

I was actually addressing Jim from old truth(sorry for the confusion) but I will be happy to answer you concerns.

“I'm tired of defending what is right and proper to you punks.”

No need to get mad or resort to name calling.

“It's up to you to provide the evidence for Perry's Biblicity.”

He believes in the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the vicarious atonement, the trinity, the inspiration (and infallibility) of the bible, and justification by faith (I’m probably forgetting something). If the bible says it..…he believes it. Period.

Many people here are publicly rebuking our brothers in Christ. If you have objective evidence of heresy or sin then I will gladly contact Newspring and ask that they change. If they refused to change I will publicly rebuke them. Until that objective evidence is produced I will continue to defend Newspring church from being attacked by their brothers in Christ. Again, I’m still waiting for that evidence…

“God is not mocked.”

Amen.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Nathan,

I appreciate your effort to address my question--you're the only one among the defenders who did--but I think you misunderstand my point. Let me clarify, so that we can go on in peace and Christian charity, rather than making unfounded accusations.

See, I'm a stay-at-home mother, and I do an awful lot of very "neutral things," from washing dishes to changing diapers to bargain-shopping. (You could possibly make a connection to Proverbs 31 here, but that's beside the point.)

However, I do these things in the name of Christ. I try--though I don't succeed 100%, being human--to weigh what I do in terms of my witness. "Is [insert activity here] something I want to be caught doing by an unbeliever? Does [insert activity here] give Christ a bad name (through me)? Would Jesus tell me to do, or not to do, [insert activity here]?" This is what I understand the passage to mean.

So the question I had applies here as, "Does it help or hurt our witness before the unbelievers for them to see and hear us singing a song about drunkenness as a 'cure' for depression? Is Christ glorified, or slandered, by such behavior?" A little prudence today saves a lot of explanation tomorrow, yes?

[threegirldad]

Bravo, Mrs. Pilgrim!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:11-12;&version=49;

[Jim W]

You don't read very well, do you, james? You are the one claiming that this mockery of God is OK. I'm telling you to prove that it is OK. It's not up to those of us who see it as mockery to prove it is. We have. There have been plenty of Bible references to prove our point. I have yet to see any from you. You just keep telling everyone it's OK and then you bring in stupid illustrations about using a bathroom. Face it, you're a punk. That's not name-calling, that's stating a fact. Anyone who uses the ridiculous arguments that you use is an illiterate punk. Time to grow up. And as far as I'm concerned, I've had enough of your stupidity. When you learn to read and actually take the time to do so, come on back and we can converse as adults.
To the blog owner: I apologize if I'm coming out as a fire-breathing fundamentalist and taking up your space. I just am completely sick of those who call evil, good. It's time they grew up and learned right from wrong.

[Nathan]

Mrs. Pilgrim,
Thank you so very much. Conversing with you is a delight, and I will continue for as long as you wish. Also, forgive me for misunderstanding your question. It was much clearer this time around :-)

I think your point about doing things with our witness in mind is quite good. I actually wrote a post about that at my blog a while back, how Christians should think of how an action would make them look to the lost before they do that action ... even if it's not necessarily a sin to do it.

I actually have an unsaved friend, and so I decided to ask him about some of the most common things that Christians say would be a bad testimony to the unsaved. It was interesting to hear his answers.

My point is, that perhaps instead of assuming how an unsaved person would react, we should just ask them. For instance, I asked about movie theaters (something I was always told was a sin because it was a bad testimony to be seen at a movie theater). He laughed and told me that was probably the most ridiculous thing he ever heard. And the list goes on.

The very sad truth is, some of the things that we could just swear the lost would hate, are actually only offensive to Christians. In fact, a lost person may think more favorably on Christianity if he knew this about NewSpring. It's just something to think about.

So to answer you last question, "Does it help or hurt our witness before the unbelievers...", I'd have to say ... yeah, it probably does. It's probably a good thing that some churches are doing things like this to engage and disarm a lost person. It's amazing how many stories there are of people who came into church with walls up, and something like this broke the ice, and helped them put down their walls, and they came to Christ. I have stories like this myself, if you're interested.

Anyway, I'd be interested to see what you think, Mrs. Pilgrim. Did that answer satisfy, or further frustrate you :-) Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong. I won't mind :-)

PS - For the record, I'm just going to be talking to Mrs. Pilgrim from now on. She's the only one interested in understanding my position, and hasn't put words in my mouth. She may very well change my mind on this as well. Thank you for your spirit, Mrs. P :-)

PSS - Sorry about the long post. I didn't mean for it to be that long.

[james]

Jim W,

Again, no need to be mad or resort to name calling (yes, that’s what it is). Let’s speak the truth, in love.

“It's not up to those of us who see it as mockery to prove it is.”

The burden of proof is on the prosecutor. Remember, innocent until proven guilty. It’s hurts to be attacked by my Christian brothers for simply asking for objective evidence.

“We have.” (We have proved it.)

5 pieces of subjective evidence = 1 piece of objective evidence? I’m sorry but in no court would this be enough to prove anything.

Jim from old truth,

Thank you for referring your readers to this thread. Maybe they can provide evidence that you and others have not been able to provide. Let me catch everyone up. I have asked for objective evidence that shows Newspring Church is unbiblical. It has not yet been produced. So I offer the same call to the readers at old truth. Objective evidence? …anyone?

Remember, I will be quick to point out subjective evidence.

[glo]

nathan,

to ask the question: "what seeker sensitive lie are you talking about?" in one of your postings to Val - just
confirms that you are bought INTO it and as in Mal. 1 -
the priests nor the people could any longer discern what
true worship was - so, they asked questions like you have.
glo

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Nathan,

I am not now, nor ever was, frustrated with you on this topic. I'm not satisfied, of course, being the flaming fundie that I am, but not frustrated as such. ;-) (I apologize to the blog owner in advance, as this one will be long...)

Nathan, I could easily counter your success stories with stories of catastrophic failures--among which would fall the "half-successes" of getting someone to pray the prayer, but not getting them to walk the walk. I understand, both from doctrine and experience, that sanctification is a process, not an all-at-once event, but for a person to go years without taking the first step toward turning away from blatant sin (drunkenness, adultery, bigotry, etc.) is a bit much to accept, wouldn't you agree? I know many such "Christians."

Using gimmicks and ice-breakers is unnecessary anyway, I would imagine, as it's the Holy Spirit Who does the saving, not our crusades or parties or missions. (Sure, He lets us and even commands us to help, but that doesn't mean we get the credit, does it?) This, I think, defeats an "ends justifying the means" argument. If you agree, we might go ahead and set that notion aside.

...This still leaves the question of how we SHOULD conduct ourselves. Another problem is the unbelievers (think Hitchens and Dawkins) who are just drooling over a chance to call Christians hypocrites, declare to the world that there is nothing "special" about us, and denounce us as just as carnal as anyone else. They don’t care whether THEY think something is wrong; they'll use our own yardstick to measure us because the objective is DESTROY CHRISTIANITY. They know that WE know that drunkenness is wrong, so they will call us on it if we sing frivolously about drunkenness.

Sure, they'll hang us anyway for SOMETHING, but should we be providing rope so cheaply? Let them make their own rope.

We are ambassadors for the Kingdom of Heaven; this is the core of the passage, "in the name of Christ." We represent to the world what the next will be like. Is this a job we're on 24/7, or do we have an eight-hour workday and get to call it quits on evenings and weekends? This is why I think that singing songs about drinking binges, extramarital affairs, anger, hate, and lust are very inappropriate for us, in church or in the car! (Yes, in the car. There's a word for people who present more than one face.)

We're called to holiness. If God's judgment does not take breaks, then neither should our struggle to make the grade. (Not a fear argument; this is just a logical conclusion. I know we're forgiven, but that doesn't give us carte blanche to continue in ungodliness...)

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

James,

If you'd please watch the conversation between me and Nathan, you might see why -I- am objecting to the practice in question as unbiblical. I can't speak for anyone else, though.

Incidentally, if it would help, I will try to find a discussion thread I ran across some months ago where Mr. Noble rather unscripturally drew a distinction between laypeople and clergy. (It was intended as an insult to those of us not willing to go along with his plan to make churches more like a three-ring circus.) If a pastor is asserting an unbiblical authority, would that be sufficient "objective evidence" for you?

[Nathan]

Mrs. Pilgrim,
Good to hear back from you :-) I'm glad I'm not frustrating you ... I think 2 Christians rationally talking about a sensitive subject without steam coming out of our ears can be considered progress compared to some conversations I've seen (and shamefully, have participated in before).

I would like to say that I agree with your "the ends don't justify the means" statement. That is so absolutely true! But you asked me the question, how does something like singing this song before church affect our witness to the unsaved. I answered by saying that it, in many if not most cases, is actually beneficial because it can break the ice. I wasn't implying that we are allowed to do anything in order to break the ice, but was rather just trying to answer your question as it was posed.

Certainly sanctification is a process, and we should become more and more like Christ (although we certainly stumble) the longer we are a Christian. However, I know many people at NewSpring and I am constantly amazed at the change taking place within and without. Is everyone getting better at NewSpring? Certainly not! Is everyone getting better at the church down the road? I would say that the majority of the folks I know at NewSpring are indeed growing in their relationship with Christ weekly. There is no doubt in my mind that NewSpring is used of God to produce genuine converts.

""Using gimmicks and ice-breakers is unnecessary anyway, I would imagine, as it's the Holy Spirit Who does the saving, not our crusades or parties or missions""

Evangelism period is unnecessary, but we do it anyway. Icebreakers are unnecessary, sure, but they are a tool God is using to bring people to Christ. Yes, there is no substitute for the Holy Spirit's conviction, but we can do our best to give him a tender heart to work with ... not because we have to , but because we want to be used!

I very much appreciate your call to consistency! There are certain groups that condemn the use of Contemporary Christian music in church, but think it's just fine to listen to in the car. I find that inconsistent, so thank you :-)

And finally, I think the root of the issue. Since the song did reference the drinking of alcohol, even to the point of drunkenness. I assume that you think that the song glorifies that activity, but if you read the lyrics, it very much demonstrates the absurdity of thinking public drunkenness is ok. I won't go so far as to say that the song has some sort of spiritual theme, but it certainly doesn't glorify drinking to excess.

You mentioned something before that was interesting ... appropriateness. But let's keep in mind that appropriateness is a very loose term, and highly subject to human opinion. For instance, someone posted the following audio excerpt from one of Ingrid's radio shows:
http://cleave.blogs.com/Music/SLICE.mp3

Now, she thinks that is inappropriate. Evidently, saying "Holy" in an African American accent is inappropriate. Yet she uses the word "fanny" at the end, which I assume she considered appropriate. Another person could easily say that the song was appropriate (I happen to be one of them). Yet another person might come along and say that her use of the word "fanny" was inappropriate. No one is necessarily wrong, because that is all just our opinion. It is when we start attributing biblical authority to our opinions that we start crossing the line, don't you think?

Anyway, I've gone long again...

[sam]

Nathan, friendship with the world puts us at enemy with God.

It is amazing how far you will go to justify Newspring singing that song DURING their church service. The song talks about being high as an ivory tower. It is humorous and downright intellectually embarrassing that you think this song shows the absurdity of public drunkeness. You are reaching but you know this. This is what happens when you run out of any valid points to make and you try to deconstruct the song in classic postmodern fashion.

Then you ramble off some of your emerging relativeness. Everything is relative with people of your age and lack of apparent wisdom being the ripe old age of 21. Next you will be telling us that cursing is all relative to culture in your postmodern fashion. Of course, appropriateness is all relative isnt is? The Bible is just not sufficent for a guide on how we should worship?

Lets see, how is Newspring unbiblical.

1. The pastor plagiarizes. This is bearing false witness. Last time i checked it was somewhere among the 10 commandments
2. Newspring bows to the idol of cultural relativism. Phillippians 4:8-9. Does this song meet this criteria?
3. Newspring follows man made philosphies and church growth fads. Col 2:8
4. The pastor constantly talks about people kissing his rear end and punching people in the throat. He mock his fellow christians and is very arrogant. Lets, see pride. Doesnt the bible mention something about that? Pride goeth before a fall?

Like I said, singing Friends in Low places is just a symptom of larger issues at Newspring. As Spurgeon once said, "are you feeding sheep or amusing the goats". We are to be in the world but not of the world. Our worship services should not resemble secular rock concerts.

Nathan, evangelism is unnecessary? I guess, if you ignore the great commission. You think we can soften or in your words "tender" hearts? We have the power to affect people's hearts? You have some skewed theology at work in man's roll in evangelism.

I pray that you will look for a God centered church not the man centered churches that you currently seem attracted to. For it is more true than ever before:

2 Timothy 4:3-4

3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

[james]

I apologize if this goes a little long.

Mrs. Pilgrim,

“If a pastor is asserting an unbiblical authority, would that be sufficient "objective evidence" for you?”

There is a very fine line between unbiblical authority (lording over people, tyranny) and being a strong pastor/shepherd. Where that fine line is actually drawn is subjective. Whether Perry actually crossed that fine line is subjective. I have heard Perry talk about being a pastor many times, and from what I have seen he shepherds Newspring very well. I really need to see the quote to be sure, but it sounds like this was an incident and not a theological difference. If it really bothers you then you should contact Newspring to iron it out. Be sure that you clearly show how he crossed the line to being a tyrant from simply being a shepherd.

“If you'd please watch the conversation between me and Nathan, you might see why -I- am objecting to the practice in question as unbiblical.”

You and Nathan can debate whether singing this song is a sin (I don’t think it is). I am interested in your opinion though. It should be noted, however, that those criticizing this practice can not even agree as to whether we should never sing this song anywhere, or if we should not sing it around other Christians, or if we should not sing it in a church service, or if we should just not sing it in a church building. You see why I point out that it comes down to subjective interpretations and applications?

By the way, Mrs Pilgrim, thank you for trying to address the issues and not name calling. :-)

Everyone else,

It seems Jim from old truth has retreated to his blog to make fun and continue his accusations. I guess it is easier to laugh us off than to actually answer a call for evidence. I too would be embarrassed if my best argument against Newspring was to quote Titus 2:7-8 and say that Perry is undignified.

Could it be wrong to publicly criticize a pastor without solid evidence? Surely, Jim, you would not be nitpicking Perry without a solid theological reason.

Jim, I’ll be waiting here when you have the evidence and courage to back up the things you say.

[james]

Sam,

1. “The pastor plagiarizes.” Wikipedia: "the practice of claiming, or implying, original authorship or incorporating material from someone else's written or creative work, in whole or in part, into ones own without adequate acknowledgment." Please show me where Perry has claimed or implied original ownership of someone’s material. Or you could show us where Perry has used material without adequate acknowledgement.

2. “Newspring bows to the idol of cultural relativism.” Please provide evidence that Newspring worships “cultural relavitism” instead of worshiping the God of the Bible.

3. “Newspring follows man made philosphies and church growth fads.” Newspring as well as others are actually breaking free from “man made philosophies” that so many churches are attached to. You will have to show evidence that Newspring actually wants to grow for selfish reasons rather than for the sake of following the great commission.

4.”The pastor constantly talks about people kissing his rear end and punching people in the throat. He mock his fellow christians and is very arrogant.” I show the same grace to Perry fro saying this as I show to Jim W for calling me an illiterate punk. Sometimes our frustration gets the better of us. The person who has never said anything in anger can throw the first stone.

1,2, and 3 are just subjective accusations(opinions). 4 is a mistake likely made by every Godly pastor that has ever lived.

Does anybody have EVIDENCE that shows Newspring Church is unbiblical?

[Sam]

1. Perry claims to use others materials without citing his sources yet he calls it "personalization". It is a classic case of postmodern deconstruction of the term plagiarism. But it still is a sin and bearing false witness. See here: http://www.perrynoble.com/2007/05/15/eight-reminders-for-effective-communication-part-one/ and you can see my post from above to get an idea of the meaning of plagiarization that you sorely do not understand. He has plagiarized Mark Driscoll numerous times. During Perry's Lord of the RIng sermon series he plagiarized Driscoll's talk about Jesus that I saw Driscoll present at the Desiring God conference. Later in that same sermon series, Perry did a sermon on How to have an affair in which he plagiarized a large portion of Ed Young Jr's sermon of the same title. Perry plagiarizes constantly and then boasts about HOW creative Newspring and he is. Of course, if you find it creative to find a way to plagiarize others ideas and sermons off as your own product then you would have to say Perry is creative.

2. See singing of "Friends in low places" in their church during worship time as exhibit A of bowing to the idol of culture. Constant singing of secular songs during worship. In the world not OF the world.

3. Newspring is breaking free of man made philosphies? really? They are following man made church growth methods. PDC, Ed Young Jrs fellowship church. They are just copying established man made church growth methods. Play secular music, dress in jeans, have comtempary christian music, make people feel comfortable. Tell jokes, do topical sermons, do not do expositional preaching. ETC, ETC, ETC. Newspring is doing nothing new. Just new to their particular demographics and geography. Just look at Perry's blog and his self promotion. His pride shows through over and over.

4. You can show Perry grace for his telling people to kiss his rear end and saying he wants to punch people in the throat (another expression he "borrowed from Mark Driscoll(I think he has a man crush on Driscoll)) but you showing grace does not excuse the fact that it is unbiblical for Perry to keeping using these phrases.

5. Oh, i forgot this one. It is unbiblical for Perry to give props to TD Jakes who is a false teacher. Perry should be protecting his flock not leading them to wolves.

Far from just mere opinions. You can choose to continue to be an apologist if you like. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

"Error never shows itself in its naked reality, in order not to be discovered. On the contrary, it dresses elegantly, so that the unwary may be led to believe that it is more truthful than truth itself." (Irenaeus of Lyons—2nd Century A.D.)

[Jim W]

james, you never learn to shut up, do you? Now you're accusing Jim Bublitz from Old Truth of sitting over at his own blog and making accusations. I'll say it again. You are an illiterate punk. Now, I want you to tell me how that is any worse than anything Perry Noble has ever said. I'll even use your own arguments, first. I'm not saying it in church. It's your opinion that this is a rude and mean statement to you. I say it isn't. I say I'm just being relevant. Give me Bible proof that this is wrong to say to you. How dare you judge me! You're judging me and you don't even know me. You don't know my heart, only God knows my heart. I don't see it as really crude or vulgar, so who's to say it's wrong?
Does this sound like your arguments? If you don't see it, you really are hopeless.

[james]

Sam,

1. “…How to have an affair in which he plagiarized a large portion of Ed Young Jr's sermon of the same title.”

It’s very likely that Perry spoke to Ed and got permission for this. I believe they are good friends. Also the fact that he used the same title tells me he was not trying to pass it off as his original idea.
You will have to elaborate on “Driscoll's talk about Jesus”. That does not tell me much.

2. “See singing of ‘Friends in low places’ in their church during worship time as exhibit A of bowing to the idol of culture.”

First of all, did you miss the multiple times it has been stated that this was not during worship? Singing “How Firm a Foundation” is not worshiping hymns. Singing “Friends in Low Places” is not worshiping culture. Exhibit A does not prove anything.

3. “Newspring is breaking free of man made philosphies? really?”
Yes. Actually, it would be more accurate to say, “Newspring is doing more to break free from man made philosophies than most churches are.” I should have made that clear.

“They are just copying established man made church growth methods. Play secular music, dress in jeans, have comtempary christian music, make people feel comfortable. Tell jokes, do topical sermons, do not do expositional preaching. ETC, ETC, ETC.”

I could also make this claim about the traditional church. They used those padded pews, air condition, microphones, hymn books, altar calls, ETC, ETC, ETC. How dare the traditional church use these man made, man centered, church growth methods!:-) It’s just as ridiculous for me to make these accusations as it is for you to make them.

4. “You can show Perry grace for his telling people to kiss his rear end and saying he wants to punch people in the throat (another expression he "borrowed from Mark Driscoll (I think he has a man crush on Driscoll)) but you showing grace does not excuse the fact that it is unbiblical for Perry to keeping using these phrases”

See my response to Jim W below.

5. “It is unbiblical for Perry to give props to TD Jakes who is a false teacher.”

First of all, I hope your arguments against TD Jakes are more solid than your arguments against Perry Noble.
Second, assuming TD Jakes has theological problems, can we not point out the heresy AND give him point out the good things he says? I can respect people without agreeing with them.
Third, if we are to separate from a “false teacher”, should we also separate from those who refuse to separate from that “false teacher”? That’s the question in this case, and I think you will find that the Bible does not give us an answer.

“There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.”

Amen. And also those who think opinions are the same as evidence.

Jim W,

“You are an illiterate punk. Now, I want you to tell me how that is any worse than anything Perry Noble has ever said.”

That’s exactly my point. Your statement is not worse than Perry’s, nor Perry’s worse than yours. Either they are equally ok or they are equally sin. One frustrated statement is not enough to write off a person’s whole ministry. Your “illiterate punk” statement is not enough to write off your ministry, and Perry’s statement is not enough to write off his ministry.

I apologize, again, for going long.

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Nathan,

I'm going to address something you said--briefly--and then offer to agree to disagree on the narrow issue of the post.

You wrote: "Certainly sanctification is a process, and we should become more and more like Christ (although we certainly stumble) the longer we are a Christian. However, I know many people at NewSpring and I am constantly amazed at the change taking place within and without."

Good. I love to hear that Christians are becoming increasingly holy and in conformity with the will of God. (I'm sure that's what you meant, not the squishy, weak-wristed "nice guy" definition of "Christian" that the world prefers.) The longer we are in Christ, the less we should look like the world, right? So I shall cling to the hope that someday, the entire conduct of that church body, by corporate practice and by individual behavior, will savor of Christ and Heaven.

Of course, in my estimation, that would preclude worldly songs like the one we're debating, as I figure we won't be singing, say, "Savin' All My Love for You" (Whitney Houston) in Heaven, either...

It's not that I find I can't argue with you or that I'd be convinced if I weren't so blamed stubborn; it's just that I have been convicted on this count. I want to offer as much of my daily life as I can, unblemished, to the Lord, so I try not to add worldliness to it.

I consider songs like the above to be worldly, so you can see why I was shocked and do not regard it as appropriate that a group of people gathered to worship the Most Holy God should sing it. Even if the service hadn't begun, it was still a gathering of believers for the purpose of worship and godly fellowship.

Yes, there is a great deal of "IMHO" in this comment; I recognize that. I believe, however, that where I've become less worldly, I've been convicted by the Holy Spirit. Does that make my arguments authoritative? Not likely; but if my sharing them helps someone else become more godly, I'm grateful to Him.

That said, I think we've gotten all we're going to get out of this line of discusssion, so I propose that we agree to disagree for now. Maybe someday you'll come around... ;-)

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

James,

I hate to bust in on a discussion, but you asked some questions I would love to help with.

1. In the academic universe, simply using someone else's materials without proper attribution is considered plagiarism. Mr. Noble's doing so, in light of his previous, hearty endorsement of plagiarism, does lend itself to the logical conclusion that he is, in fact, engaging in plagiarism. This is a form of fraud, is dishonest, and is a slander to Christ. Assuming that the person whose intellectual property is being stolen is aware of the theft requires speculation--which, if we are to look out for one another like good Christian brothers, may rise to the level of a sin against him. Fair?

2. Perhaps it's not "bowing to the idol of the culture", but it's certainly not worshipping God, either. Nathan and I have been around on that one a few times, so I'm stopping there, for myself, and letting those who express the position better than I can, do so.

3. There's a wide difference between using secular songs to "break the ice" and "bring in the unsaved", and using air conditioning to keep the fragile from passing out during the summer. I also hope you're not implying that churches stop singing God-honoring hymns...

4. Is a pastor to be held to a higher standard than the average believer? As one called to declare the mind of God (generally by preaching from the Written Word) and to guide his flock, shouldn't he be even more careful to guard his mouth, lest they be betrayed into ungodly conduct? And as the first person the unsaved will look to when they want to see what NewSpring Church is about, shouldn't he make sure to give the best impression?

His words were in writing, so that already gives a degree of removal from immediate speech, and creates an expectation of greater forbearance. And, so far as I am aware, he has not yet apologized for his harshness. (If he has, please point out where, so that I can disregard that particular grievance.)

5. T.D. Jakes denies the doctrine of the Trinity, preferring instead the heresy of modalism. He also promotes baptismal regeneration. I assume you know what these are, so I don't define them here for you. You can go here for further details: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j11.html.

Here is an article that lists some major issues with him: http://www.pfo.org/jakes.html. I wouldn't have phrased things quite as they do, but that's a question of style. In any event, the facts are the facts. Among his offenses are his warped doctrine of sin, and his preaching of a "wealthy Jesus" in order to justify his own first-class lifestyle.

Point here: Mr. Noble really needs to exercise some discernment. He has responsibilities to those who are weak and need guidance. There IS a point at which we must "disfellowship" a heretic preacher, and Mr. Jakes plainly arrives at that point, teaching another Gospel and another Christ. There isn't that much "good" to commend in that.

James, do these help? My concern is that Mr. Noble means well, but he is still permitting errors that can't be ignored...

[james]

Mrs. Pilgrim,

I can’t say enough how much I respect you for examining evidence before jumping the gun.

1. “Mr. Noble's doing so, in light of his previous, hearty endorsement of plagiarism, does lend itself to the logical conclusion that he is, in fact, engaging in plagiarism.”

Plagiarism is a serious thing, no doubt. If we make accusations as serious as plagiarism, we should at least back up those accusations up with evidence of where he has plagiarized.

2. “Perhaps it's not "bowing to the idol of the culture", but it's certainly not worshipping God, either.”

Agreed. It was never meant to be worship. I wish others on this thread understood as well as you do.

3. “There's a wide difference between using secular songs to "break the ice" and "bring in the unsaved", and using air conditioning to keep the fragile from passing out during the summer.”

Notice, I was responding to Sam’s comment that “make people feel comfortable” is a “church growth method”. It was laughable, really.

“I also hope you're not implying that churches stop singing God-honoring hymns...”

I wasn’t. My comment was sarcastic. Again, you may be able to help me with Sam

4. “Is a pastor to be held to a higher standard than the average believer? As one called to declare the mind of God (generally by preaching from the Written Word) and to guide his flock, shouldn't he be even more careful to guard his mouth, lest they be betrayed into ungodly conduct? And as the first person the unsaved will look to when they want to see what NewSpring Church is about, shouldn't he make sure to give the best impression?”

Yes, yes, and yes. I can not condone or condemn Perry’s harsh comments. I have pointed out though that this has been the weakness of many of the most respected pastors in church history. Christians, for the most part, have never and should never judge a whole ministry based on a couple of comments made in frustration.

5. “There IS a point at which we must "disfellowship" a heretic preacher, and Mr. Jakes plainly arrives at that point,”

The question is should we “disfellowship” from those who refuse to “disfellowship”? The Bible does not say. We should assume that if Perry were confronted with the heresy he would condemn it. I imagine he has not had time to check the ins and outs of TD Jakes theology.

“Point here: Mr. Noble really needs to exercise some discernment.”

I can agree with that. Although, I think Perry is more concerned with reaching people going to hell than running a discernment ministry, so I can understand if he slips up occasionally. Discernment ministries are very important, but our priority should be reaching the lost. Think of the parable of the shepherd leaving the 99 in the flock to look for the 1 lost sheep.

The fact that Perry is not known for his discernment is not proof that Newspring church is unbiblical. Since Newspring is a biblical church, should we should not show more grace? We are on the same team. Just imagine this was your traditional church, imagine we were talking about you regulative principle believing pastor. Would we not give them the benefit of the doubt on the minor issues? I’m pretty sure that we would not be posting every little thing we disagree with on the internet. All I ask is that you(all Newspring critics here) consider the possibility that you may be making mountains out of molehills and causing unnecessary friction in the body of Christ.

[Nathan]

Mrs. Pilgrim,
I believe you're right, we probably should agree to disagree. I do very much appreciate and respect you for the way you handled this :-) As to the content of your last post, I am a firm believer in not "sinning against your own conscience". By all means, if you cannot in good conscience listen to a song like this, far be it from me to even attempt to convince you otherwise. That is very much between you and our Savior.

One point of disagreement that I feel like I almost have to articulate: many times, when we say "less worldly", it's used to condemn someone for doing something that we don't necessarily find in the Bible, but we simply cannot fathom it being ok with God. For instance, worldly clothing is many times meant to convey the idea of immodest. Other times it's meant to imply the latest fashions. Hardly ever is it meant to imply a suit and tie.

My point is this ... when a person says "worldly music", they often mean "conceived and produced by non-believers". But if we were consistent, the vast majority of modern clothes, conveniences, etc. were conceived and produced by the world. Why is a suit not considered "worldly". Why is using Shure brand microphones not considered "worldly"?

I'm not necessarily trying to imply anything, as much as I am curious as to why you think that a secular song (let's use a less controversial song like "you raise me up") is wrong, but a secular microphone isn't?

One last answer to a question you posed:
""The longer we are in Christ, the less we should look like the world, right?""

If you mean by "look less like the world" you mean "sin less", then YES. If by "look less like the world" you mean "don't do anything they do or did in the past, just because they did it", then NO. Separation is great if it serves the purpose of loving Christ more and sinning less. But if we separate for the sake of separation, then I think that's quite pointless.

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me. Indeed, if you are correct, then I expect no less than to "come around" eventually :-) God Bless you, Mrs. Pilgrim!

Nathan

[Douglas]

Mr. Noble is a false teacher and the Bible, from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is all the evidence the discerning Christian needs. There is no fear of God in Mr. Noble's life nor is there any holiness of God. Perry Noble is deceiving the lost and he should be putting on sackcloth and ashes and repenting in the dust. Perry has an army of "yes" men all around him now, exactly like the false teacher Rick Warren, to deflect all valid criticism. Perry Noble should be trembling every moment of the day at the Word of God. He handles God's Word unfaithfully.

Perry Noble will have no excuse when he appears before God on Judgment Day for promoting the heretic T. D. Jakes. No one will. Woe is him unless he repents of his sinful wickedness.

The Humble and Contrite in Spirit

Isaiah 66
1Thus says the LORD:
"Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool;
what is the house that you would build for me,
and what is the place of my rest?
2All these things my hand has made,
and so all these things came to be,
declares the LORD.
But this is the one to whom I will look:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit
and trembles at my word."

I have never seen any humility or contriteness of spirit in Mr. Noble. All I see is boastful arrogance and pride.

Also, allowing such disgraceful worldly songs to be sung in corporate gatherings of professed believers is horrendous. What a tragic deception facing people today.

True Repentance!

From Spurgeon's sermon, "APART"

True repentance is always accompanied by sorrow.

Repentance is a deep, radical, fundamental, lasting change;
and you will find that, whenever you meet with it in Scripture,
it is always accompanied with sorrow for past sin.

And rest assured of this fact-- that the repentance which has
no tear in its eye, and no mourning for sin in its heart,
is a repentance which needs to be repented of.

In such false repentance, there is no evidence of conversion,
and no sign of the existence of the grace of God.

The man who knows that his sin is forgiven,
does not cease to mourn for it.
No, brethren, his mourning becomes deeper as
his knowledge of his guilt becomes greater.
His hatred of sin grows in proportion as he understands
that love of Christ by which his sin is put away.

In true believers, mourning for sin is chastened and sweetened,
and, in one sense, the fang of bitterness is taken out.

But, in another sense, the more we realize
our indebtedness to God's grace, and the more we see of
the sufferings of Christ in order to effect our redemption,
the more do we hate sin, and the more do we lament
that we ever fell into it.

The man who has led the purest life, when he is brought
before God by the humbling influence of the Holy Spirit,
is the man who almost invariably considers himself
to have been viler than anybody else.

"Repentance is to leave
The sin we loved before,
And show that we in earnest grieve
By doing so no more."

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

Nathan,

Quick note about your microphone question, since a fussy baby is forcing me to type one-handed...

One thing I try to do is to buy my products from Christian companies--and absent those, from companies not hostile to Christians. It's a way, to me, to support my brethren, and also to avoid putting money in the hands of God's overt enemies. However, if the product is only made by people overtly hostile, I usually make a judgment call as to whether we really need it. But this is just something I do; I don't expect everyone to do the same, since as you say it's a question of conscience and not necessarily Scripture.

(I actually have been contemplating a business plan around that notion, but it's still in the works.)

If you ask me whether a church particularly needs a microphone, I admit to not knowing, and not knowing, I decline to pass judgment.

On the other hand, music in a church is probably something we don't need to outsource, given the volume that's been produced by believers...Bit of a difference there.

God bless you, too!

[Mrs. Pilgrim]

James,

Yes, sharing the Gospel is indeed priority #1. However, isn't it part of that task to make sure that the Gospel we share is the real one?

As such, if we join hands with someone to that purpose, shouldn't we make sure that that someone is also sharing the real Gospel? (With how quickly I managed to pull that information I gave you, it only takes a few minutes to find out; the Internet is a real blessing.) Otherwise, don't we run the risk of working counter to the purpose at hand? Here is where discernment becomes crucial, not an option.

Not everyone is gifted at sharing the Gospel ("Do all preach? Are all Apostles?"), but some are particularly blessed with clear vision and able to help others see pitfalls and snares. We're called to exercise ALL gifts of course, but IIRC, God grants them to us rather differently so that we can really be one Body, right? If someone operates a discernment ministry, I don't know that we should be too quick to call it "less important" than someone else's soul-saving ministry; it's all the Holy Spirit. (Just clarifying.)

Diversity is a beautiful, powerful thing. *grin*

[Xtian]

wow I have read all the comments and it sure heated. So here is my 2 cents.

There was a time when pastors toiled in prayer, digging in God's word, research and then more prayer in preparing for a sermon (many days). Now the PDC movement is about cut & paste requiring no studying, no seeking God, no discipline or practice in rightly dividing God's word (plagiarism is the least of the problems IMO). One serious problem with PDC instant sermons is that if there is error (of which I personally think there is a lot with RW), then that error spreads like wild fire.

Instant sermons takes away the individual discipline, discernment and the personal growth of everyday pastors. IMO that is not good. How can you be an approved workman if you dont spend the time studying (alone with you and God?)

From what I have seen the modern church is in error because its no longer for "believers" coming together to praise & worship God; its not about equipping the saints for good works, its not about encouraging holiness, obedience or repentance. Instead the modern church is about getting the most non-believers into the church as possible.

Even the idea/term that non-believers are "seekers" goes against Romans 3:11 "... there is none that seeketh after God."

The best test to see if a church is on the right path is to compare these modern sermons with those in the bible. If the two are vastly different then there is a problem. Then you have to decide which to follow. For me I will take the bible. After all Jesus said "heaven and earth will pass away, but Me and my words will last forever" shows the importance of sticking to what is tried and true.

As for singing in church "I've got friends in low places" or even considering "brick house", even if its not during official worship, is lacking and shows how people see that there is a split between outside life and church life. Never is this implied, commanded or allowed in scripture - its a far cry from the holiness we are to walk in daily.

Now before anyone comes down on me, let me say it took some time to come to this position. The more time I spent in God's word, the more I became convicted and convinced that we are to follow His word and be set apart - to be strangers in a strange land.

My advice is to get into God's word and use it as the standard of which we should measure everything against; instead of defending this pastor or that pastor. Well I gotta run.

Take care & God bless,

Steve
aka Xtian

Mrs.